19 replies to this topic

[Eternyte]

Posted by Pandilex.

To further improve the balance of classes in Nightmist, I'd like everyone who visits this forum to post, sensibly, what changes they believe should be made to thieves. How are they overpowered? How are they underpowered?

I'd like information in great detail, and I'd also like to know how you think they weigh up against the other classes. Which other classes are more powerful? Why?

I need to know how I should change the class to improve it further. To make it easier, I'm asking everyone who has played or played againsit a thief to post their opinions.


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To structure this thread better, I would like people to use bullet points to state each piece of information clearly.

If you agree or disagree with another person, simply state that you disagree with [this statement] because ____

If you don't stick to this I will delete your posts, regardless of their contents, because I need to be able to read the information easily, and it makes it much easier when I can see clearly which suggestions are favoured by the majority.

Edited by Eternyte, 21 February 2004 - 03:00 PM.

[Squidge]

i think that the assasination 'skill' is good but only really if u get to a high level

i think there shud be slightly weaker skills available at lower levels and u shud gain the assassination skill at say lvl 20

[alone]

Assassinate is a perfect skill for all levels.. I hardly ever use normal attack.

[Primal_Whisperer]

just covert and run around the sewers or Scarlet Daggers Assasinating stuff. No threat from pkers that way.

[stalker]

1 thing i dont like is BERSERKERS!!!! i have a lvl 24 thief and a lvl 23 zerker (thief stats 21 x 18 21 14 x zerker stats 20 x 18 21 17 x) and i was in RG earier today using smite with the zerk and assassinate with the thief

thief has katana and the zekrer had at the time a pike. i clicked a mutant beetle with the thief for 170 (random number) and then i used smite with 4 stamina on my zerk (without rage) and he hit for over 50 points more!!. i understand that zerkers use hp to use smite but i think that its just wrong that my thief gets overpowered by my zerk who is 1 lvl lower. i have been thinking about this point ever since i first had a zerker and he was hitting for more than my thief but this is the first time i have actually posted bout it. (oops my bad) im sure thief lovers everywhere will agree with me that ITS JUST NOT FAIR!!!

Edited by stalker, 04 March 2004 - 07:22 PM.

[Wolfgang]

1 thing i dont like is BERSERKERS!!!! i have a lvl 24 thief and a lvl 23 zerker (thief stats 21 x 18 21 14 x zerker stats 20 x 18 21 17 x) and i was in RG earier today using smite with the zerk and assassinate with the thief

thief has katana and the zekrer had at the time a pike. i clicked a mutant beetle with the thief for 170 (random number) and then i used smite with 4 stamina on my zerk (without rage) and he hit for over 50 points more!!. i understand that zerkers use hp to use smite but i think that its just wrong that my thief gets overpowered by my zerk who is 1 lvl lower. i have been thinking about this point ever since i first had a zerker and he was hitting for more than my thief but this is the first time i have actually posted bout it. (oops my bad) im sure thief lovers everywhere will agree with me that ITS JUST NOT FAIR!!!

a thief can use armor. a berserker cant. Berserkers are much stronger, though they take more damage. Think about it...

But i think that a Thief only stands a chance against one class. And those are mages. Kharybdis posted an idea of Tense. An sensible ability for a thief that would alter its stats slightly.

Maybe slightly better weapons/armor being available. I understand why a thiefs weapons are not nessicarily as powerful as a fighters, and why their armor is weaker than others. But they do not have high HP, and though they high damage (but this is only at high levels), I personally feel that where a fighter could take out a thief of up to three levels higher, a thief can only take on a mage, a cleric, or a druid of the same level. And these are all a close fight... :-/

just my opinion... *shrug*

[Ryuku]

Think of a 400 lb. sword comming down on you. Then think of a 4 lb. dagger sweeping you neck. Theifs are more agile then zerkers. Even with less dex theif tend to hit more than zerks.

[Repair_man_man_man]

I wish my theif had more HP(i think dex on my dwarf is 18). But besides that, its fine.

[Repair_man_man_man]

I MEANT CONSTITUTION AND 21******

[Stitched]

Well I used to be into berserkers until i started over and now i have 8 thiefs 4 lvl 27 3 lvl 28 and 1 lvl 30 and when I pk ppl it bits me in the arse and i end up getting owned even tho i have more crits at higher lvls i think that theifs are one of the weaker classes now almost anything can round a thief and thiefs dont click ppl often i find so yeah. thats my output

[Tom]

I think they should be given a better shield that would pritty much balance them, but then if used correctly they dont need armor. i.e. jumping people.



by better shield i mean - 12 ish armor

Edited by Tom, 05 December 2004 - 08:05 PM.

[Ryuku]

Bracer of Stealth
Armor 9 descrip: blah blah blah no stat mods

[Myth]

[B]i would like to say that thieves are prolly the hardest class to train... because assassinate is so hard to use at a low lvl maybe if u could allow them to use a more variety of weapons.... im just sayin that. there hard to lvl without alt or friends help..

[Amy]

I think that all and all, thieves are fine as they are.

* Thieves have a variety of weapons, both magical and not. From a very low level to arch.

* Thieves have a variety of armor they are able to use.

* Assassinate is a skill that, in a realistic way, has a range of being effective and at other times failing. Even the most accomplished assassin, would miss at times.

*In reference to the zerker/thief comments, they are not the same class. I actually enjoy using both. The zerkers, although at times hit harder, also have the weakness of being unable to use armor.

*(to Myth) Try training them with a small group in the swamps with torches. Is amazing.

*(to Tom) I don't see an assassin, who would more or less, wish not to be seen as such, carrying a shield. Bracers, yes. A shield no.

*(to Stitched) Although thieves can not perhaps always *one click* people, they have the definate advantage of being able to move covert as a "natural ability" .. with the only drawback, of having to move slowly. Which, if a person was stalking or seeking to attack from say the shadows, they would move slowly anyway.

*(to Ryuku) I agree, thieves are definately more agile. As well as the ability to "sneak up with a dagger"... a definate plus.

*(to wolfgang)
- I agree with your point about armor between thieves and zerkers as stated above.
- I personally think that a thief does indeed stand a chance against all classes, depending upon who is running them. I have been pked by thieves hit and running several times before. Those that practice "hunting or pking" seem to do rather well with them.
- I find thieves with dotw's, are a very fun solo class.

*(to stalker) Having both thieves and zerkers, I would have to say, all in all, they are balanced. Each class having their own strengths and weaknesses. As a zerker is heftier, more bulky, etc, it is not totally unthinkable for him to fight a class a bit higher and still be successful.

*(to primal whisper) I agree with your point.. As stated above. The ability to move around covert is a definate plus for thieves.

*(to alone) I agree 100%. Assassinate is perfect for all levels. And if you are hit and running, the ability to merely attack with a thief is a great option.

*(to Squidge) I disagree.. To be able to use assassinate at the higher levels and it become a more efficient attack, one would have to practice it at lower levels realistically, to become effective at it.

Good Day,
Amy

[Ryuku]

I say thieves are not as agile (or as in how much they hit, and dodge) as they should be.

[Satterlee]

I'm not going to re-open an old topic, but, ..

Something was once discussed about having a skill at lvl 25, which allows you to speak without the enemy knowing your name..

i.e.,

/silenton
A Whisper: GoodNight.
You assassinated Warp.
/silentoff
Lansing: Rofl, noob.

[Evergrey]

I used to do alot of thieves a year or so ago, I currently own not a single thief since they have no way tom compete with other classes <in my opinion>

Their lighter armor <compared to ranger/fighter> would suggest a somewhat more agile character, same reason light infantry is used for scouting and search and destroy in opposition to bulky knights, since their lighter armor enables them to move faster and cover greater distances.
This however is not the case in the game currently, alone thieves are the slowest movers in game <with taking Assassination and covert into consideration>

I do like how well they work alone though, with a csotw or dotw you can come a long way alone without a cleric something a Ranger could never do.

Assassination should have a slight chance of taking out a crit at full hp's there is no way to round anything over 300 hp's with Armor on with a thief assassinate, the highest I ever clicked with an unspelled halfer was 278 hp's on a ranger... and that happened once during the 1-2 years I played thieves and highest a halfling ever did <to my knowledge> unspelled on a berserker was 305 which happened a few times for me during my time playing.

As it is currently Thieves are pretty much obsolete Zerkers HP's prevent them from being taken out in a 1on1 duel.
<On a few occasions I have managed to take a berserker out with 2 rounds of attacks... and only if first attack was over 290 dmg, and even more often I got rounded with perfect armor and perfect dex <23 on halfling> By a berserker with 18 dex using zerk.>

Now let's take it to a slightly bigger scale 2on2 against berserkers pointless you will never live to do both rounds on thieves, and if you do you will most likely fail with one or do horrible dmg <120ish with 5 stam on no AC> And if you succeed with both you need 250+ on both to be able to click 1 zerker and it doesn't happen that often, I state again thieves are obsolete now Berserkers are taking over. Thieves work in greater numbers and that's it... so for the people who's good with macro's and alt+esc and who plays on a good computer congrads, thieves have been plunging in prices buy 5-10 of them and knock yourselves out by hitting and running, if you're fast enough you will be in and out before they even notice their clerics dropping.

Thieves doesn't even apply to PvP in this game, since as stated above you need a vast quantity of them to make them useful.

Writers note:
I'm not sure what I just said but feel free to prove me wrong... Thieves aren't fit for fighting, they only work for jumping.

[Ryuku]

Thieves need to dodge more, enough said.

[joanna]

/t evergrey some little thief with a knife vs a huge zerker swing a large polearm/sword in an open field... of course the zerker wins. You arnt using your thief right if you put him in that situation

[Evergrey]

The point I was kinda trying to make is that it takes 2-3 thieves to round a Zerk where it most of the time takes 1 spelled zerk to take a thief out.

<And most people running 10 thieves for jumping purposes don't bring cleric for spelling, thus the spelled Zerker variation>

And how much more right can you use a thief then jumping people?

I'm still not sure if any of you really have figured out what this game is all about, it's a MUD Rpg, without the RPG part... It's supposed to be PvP but how PvP is a game when you have to let parties of 7 alts go cause you 'only' have 7 thieves with you atm and won't win the fight.

If using covert thieves to jump small parties is the 'right' way to use them I feel sad for this game, but I'm glad I sold my thieves that way I won't take a part of the further degeneration of the current game state.