7 replies to this topic

[Gaddy]

I'd like to see more training weapons introduced to Main (still). I think Torch, Machete, and Dwarven Pickaxe still kind of rule the game, even for end-game training. That seems odd to me.

 

Anyway, I'd like more damage modifiers to be considered for class-specific or area incentivization type of adjustments. I like having seen more done in this direction with Dragonclaw Scythe and Dragon's Breath, and more spread of classes and/or areas seems like it would be great!

For example, I've got this kind of huge advantage on Banshee because I got a lot of Chains of Krampus, and I think there may be similar advantages if I explored Kiss of the North and such a bit more. I think those types of area-specific or training-focused weapons should be available outside of quests.

 

For example, 

• Ilythiiri Keeshe - Drow up to 1.5 or 1.75, add Armor 1.5, Drider 1.5, Bandit 1.5, Thief 1.5, and Marauder 1.5
• Har'oloth Velve - same changes as Keeshe
  • This would make Thieves have a huge advantage in Tirantek, without harming any other classes, and their tables would look much more like other end-game weapon tables.
• Rangers - Ummm...anything?! Jungle Bow is a nod in this direction, but that is pretty brutal considering it still won't boost rangers the way Torch and Machete gives other classes huge leaps. Regardless, rangers sit in the dusty-sad-land compared to changes brought about for all other attacking classes (except maybe Paladins?)

 

 

Then either the shop weapons similar to 1-Alt's myriad of training weapon options or doing similar but requiring them to be crafted on Main. I think shop would be easier to implement and more evenly spread since some of us have stockpiles while others do not, but I'd love to see the weapons with damage tables able to be worked with on the Main server.

• Avenger's Crossbow
• Apex Bow
• Ballista
• Diamondedge
• Erebus Lance
• Hatchet of Unity
• Moonsilver Stave
• Orcsbane
• Royal Sword
• Sarin Trident
• Shepherd's Crook

 

 

In general, I am talking about Main, but I want to toss this opinion out to both playerbases:
The only real OP for modern Nightmist is getting higher quantities of characters in a party, and it is kind of impossible to address how big of an advantage folks who share or have long-time duos (like me, twice over) have over those who do not. With PKing being largely a thing of the past, the PvM game can absorb more high-damage and neat stat-mod type stuff - though high armor becomes a bit of a risk, I think. 

In short, boosting non-quest gear levels out the playing field and opens up more options for more players across the realm. I think that heavily outweighs the potential "it's OP" downsides.

 

Does that feel true to others?

[Whiplash]

As a Main server player too, i have to agree with you,

 

Everything seems to be focused on 1-alt and nothing on main server at all.  It's unfair in my opinion.

[Gaddy]

I just think the training or area specific weapons feel like low-hanging fruit for making the game more playable. The general trend of 1-Alt getting a lot more development is true but seems hard to raise as an issue.

I can understand the development bias. The additions to Main have been end-game for a very long time, and at this point, it does not seem like the Main players leap to new stuff or even quests with huge interest.
It seems like update notes about Main get missed by players. I think it is missed, not ignored. Some Main players could not get forum accounts activated for years and Main has not gotten the Discord information moved along line 1-Alt where that coordination and communication tool is more necessary.
So, the Main playerbase comes off as less interested and often vents more frustration over update details, quest styles, and the sort with limited positive feedback or contributions to how they would ask for development to trend.
eg - Do main players want more areas, more bosses, class bosses, crafting, or what? I dont really know what folks want, and I may be the most active player still. :-S


However, I think it has always been clear that both servers want efficient ways to level crits and progress the grindy aspects of gameplay. And damage tables do that with fairly precise mechanics.
So, I still wonder why they were not provided to both playerbases.

[Stig]

Here's the thing.  The two servers play very differently once you get to level 25 or so.  1-alt is all about the strength of an individual crit, but it's difficult to get into the more high XP areas without support, yet you have to train up to be useful in boss encounters, and this can be a problem against bosses who are magic-resistant or who have a lot of armour, where classes that aren't clickers really struggle - some of the training weapons affect bosses so this is a great bonus - then there's the person delegated to the Cleric role which is both thankless and critical.

 

With multi-alt, it's all about the strength of your army.  You'll likely have Rangers, Thieves or Berserkers in the bulk of of your team due to their reliable damage.  You will probably have a single non-clicker as your party leader for reliability of movement and a number of Clerics out of necessity.  Your clickers will be the ones getting the bulk of the experience, although the ones lower down the list may get to see less depending on the health of the monsters, in which case your party may be too large (e.g. often, a party of 10 is better than a party of 20 in the desert in this regard).

 

Now generally it's the Clerics that suffer the most in parties since most monsters aren't undead and you have to train them differently.  Heck, even if the boss you're fighting is undead, you'll be spending more time healing the army than dishing out damage with them.  While some specialised weapons are useful with them, nothing beats their healing spells against the undead.

For the non-clicking party leaders, Mages don't benefit from training weapons, while Druids, Fighters and Paladins already kind of get training weapons out of the Dragonclaw Scythe, Dragon's Breath and Sword of Light, although admittedly these are endgame targets (and Berserkers greatly benefit from the Dragonclaw Scythe too, maybe unfairly so).

 

On 1-alt, the Royal Sword has been repurposed into a useful training weapon for Fighters and Paladins since it has damage modifiers against Drow and Bandits (and the Bandits of the Royal Forest drop loot that bulid up towards a 1m XP bonus).  Granted I can't repurpose it on multi-alt since it's been bought a few times and is a required item to craft the Dragon's Breath if I remember.  It will take some thought because ultimately it's the non-clickers that need such training weapons, not the clickers.

[Gaddy]

That is all true, but an alternative benefit of the training weapons is that they open lots of other monsters up for training/farming.

 

I like the idea of being able to gear up a party that could train on Marauders or Tirantek with efficiency, rather than being limited to Dragonclaw Scythe classes and areas or being highly inefficient.

That is why I suggested an even simpler option of the possible Drow and Drider multiplier additional benefits on Keeshe and Har'oloth Velve.

 

Totally agree that paladins lag the most unless they get Sword of Light and focus train those, and then fighters are second most limited until they get Dragon's Breath and kind of outscale even clickers.

Rangers are missed entirely for damage multipliers, aside from the odd Jungle Bow...

 

 

But regardless, thank you for reading and considering!

[Gaddy]

Well, as I review the training weapons more closely, I see better what Stig means. 

Most of those monsters would be toast on Main without multipliers, and so the multipliers would be pointless for bear, bandit, wolf, and such would really only work for a party of 5 or less, I guess. So, duplicating most of the weapons does not make sense for Main.

 

However, I still request consideration of the concept. Better Main-specific training weapons and possibilities of x2 damage on certain Main monsters/areas:

• Significant uses if duplicated for Main:
  • Erebus Lance - demon, shadow, torture, wight, wraith (this one looks pretty uber for training)
  • Sarin Trident - spider, scorpion, ant (same old desert, but faster!)
  • Shepherd's Crook - mumm, sculpture, maybe scarab? (same zeum, but faster!)
  • Ballista - guard, knight, paladin - just missing inquis to be uber for Tower/Camp   :-X
• Main areas that could also be targeted with training buff options:
  • Cauldron - Jaguar, Razorback, Elephant, E-dino, Anaconda, Jadeback - basically Jungle Bow but maybe adding classes
  • Inquisitor's Tower - Inquisi, Atrium, Guard, Paladin (Ballista + Inquis)
  • Dvengar Stronghold - Dverger, Shadow, Cave, Nyr
  • Tirantek - Drow, Drider  (I vote for boosting Keeshe and Har'oloth Velve at least)
  • Chronos jungle/desert - adding marauder, scorpion, and snake to Jungle Bow and possible other class "Jungle" weapons?
  • Plains of Faravar - Lion, Wildebeast, Zebra, Goblin

 

In the current system, a big party is best off running in a big square killing Sand Spiders, Museum monsters, or things near pubs. Alternatively, they can power train on Maneaters with Machete if they move fast, or a smaller party can absolutely-uber-train on Pygmy Statues using Torches. So boosted training already exists outside of the GM-crafted weapons.

 

In my mind, these additions would expand what areas are good for training, and they may encourage folks to use the wider range of areas rather than grinding the same old squares. I also love how these weapons are available to all (for a price) and have visible damage tables for folks to consider.

[BerserkedFrenzy]

The only reason I would agree about this is because I think it would be amusing to see how fast things drop. That always makes me laugh, logging on all 20 driving somewhere only to remember how so well my party rips through absolutely everything. Bandit Leader? 2 rounds. Captain Wylsen? 3 maybe 4 rounds. Like bullets through tissue paper. Everything is dead so quickly, there is still a character somewhere in the party with full stamina or regenned & ready to go so just keep going wrecking things.

Let us examine the already observable scenarios such as:

Ercule Swamp: Someone loads up on all 20, sticks a Torch on all of them, goes swamping. They can wipe out the place in matter of minutes. They will start to complain, "There just not enough monsters here, expand the swamp or make them spawn faster, please!"

Genderas: Someone loads up all 20, sticks a Machete on all of them, braves the lush jungle. They will just make a trail of destruction provided they know their way around the jungle seeing as even Manticores do not take that much to kill with the use of Machetes. They would still need to have robust clerics to heal the high damage the monsters do there.

Dragonclaw Scythe: Someone loads up on all 20, zerks with Dragonclaw Scythes, goes to Temple of Sun and Shadow. Not only can they go & solo Stone Dragon with zerks which was supposed to have been difficult to do without Dwarven Pickaxe, they can also proceed to solo the "unsoloable" Shadow Drake which once required teamwork efforts now rendered  non-requisite. These areas were meant to encourage teamwork efforts where players worked together to make things happen. Purple Dragon Queen is more likely to be soloablewith the Dragonclaw Scythe too.

Dwarven Pickaxe: We all know how short of a work that makes CG even with its HPS around 1 million. We all see the insane damage it can do on things stone, statue, & crystal. Using a party of 20, done gone made them into a pile of pebbles faster than Michelangelo could carve a statue.

In the first place, loading up on all 20 already has the potential to wreck anything a player wants to. Go to Banshee on adepts & it can be done. Load up 20 arches, go do Spider King or Lyzanthir no problem. 20 arch thieves for Malok. Full party capped rangers for Gh'ul'arg. 20 arches for Ku'Nal. No problem. Easy.

On the 1-alt server, these bosses require extraordinary efforts especially with how many players actually still play it. Four players can go up & kill Banshee but they *must* have the absolute best damage potential. Eight players fighting Banshee is a far more achievable challenge but it is possible that the party cannot eke out the damage to slay her. I know, I have seen it. I thought eight was enough. Then one dropped & the other started dropping & the party unraveled. Malok? If there are thieves brave enough to work together & kill Malok. Ku'Nal? Not that Ku'Nal herself is the problem, it is the mass of Priestesses & Templars as well as the Drow Archmage that pose a great hazard. Then the Nether Beasts at Ku'Nal can make short work of a robust 1-alt party of 10. There is actually challenge. With a damage mod weapon, it doubles the damage potential of the character wielding it versus specific monsters. People struggle to do Gh'ul'arg too.

So, basically, a player on Multi-lalt server loaded up on all 20 has a damage potential of 20 because there are 20 characters. On the 1-alt server, a player can only load up on one character making it a damage potential of only 1. A damage mod weapon with 2x damage enables that character to have a damage potential of 2. So, if you compare Mult-alt damage potential per player versus 1-alt damage potential per player you get 20 : 1. 20 : 2 if the 1-alt player has a damage mod weapon dealing 2x damage.

Also, I have noticed that you log on 40 characters. You say that the other 20 is your wife playing the game for you. So, that makes it 40 : 1. You can already steamroll the whole server just as well as me & my account partner did.

In case you are not sure what I mean by "damage potential", it is the overall damage that a single character can do with one round. So a full party of 20 on Multi-alt doing a single party round has a damage potential of 20 where on 1-alt server there are no alts to load so only one character so a single damage potential, one round. I hope you see the big difference between the two servers.

If you still cannot comprehend what I have posted here, then I would recommend that you actually play 1-alt. Not just log on to say a few words, go kill a couple of Small Snakes at Southern Gatehouse or maybe a Bobcat or two in the Large Forest. Lead a boss trip. Go lead for Blue Dragon, go lead for Banshee, go lead for the Goblin Elder. You will be shocked. You will see & understand why that having damage mod weapons on 1-alt is amazingly useful. You will understand, that because you are limited to only a single character, you would need all the damage you could deal out along with all the teamwork efforts churned out to the max to make things happen as opposed to on the Multi-alt server where you can just alt + esc click everything & pay little to no attention to the screen watching a movie or something. When we talk about Multi-alt & 1-alt servers, we are talking about 2 different games. On one server, the raw power is in having the 20 characters. On the other, the raw power is in teamwork.

Again, would be nice & very amusing to see things dro quickly. But in terms of balance, it is just going to throw the game out of whack. The Dragonclaw Scythe has already done that.

[Tyrelline]

Oh damn!