18 replies to this topic

[Crane]

Not sure how viable this is, but it could potentially spark more interest in the game, especially in regards to training new crits. I have 3 new race proposals:

Drow:

Backstory: It is rare, but not unheard of, for a Drow to forsake their underdark origins and join the denizens of the sunlit world, although that doesn't mean they let go of their roots easily. Their philosophy is very much survival of the fittest, thanks to being raised in a hostile, lightless environment; nevertheless, they struggle to adapt to sunlight, and so while they retain their strength and agility, they are not as resilient as they could be.

Natural Alignment: Lawful Evil
Maximum Stats: 19 20 20 17 20 16
Permitted Classes: Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Ranger, Thief
Strengths: Very good Strength/Dexterity ratio
Weaknesses: Low maximum HP, low Charisma
Racial Bonuses: +5% chance-to-hit while underground; +5% damage in shady areas


Half-Dwarf:

Backstory: It is not only Elves who find true love in a Human, sometimes a Dwarf does too, and their offspring are, unsurprisingly, Half-Dwarves. They face similar rejection issues as other half-breeds, but are nonetheless a very dependable minority. They are slightly taller than Dwarves, and stockier than humans.

Natural Alignment: Lawful Good
Maximum Stats: 20 19 18 20 19 18
Permitted Classes: Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Thief, Berserker, Pacifist
Strengths: Sturdier than most other races
Weaknesses: Lower Dexterity and Charisma
Racial Bonuses: +2.5% damage while underground; +2.5% experience


Saurian:

Backstory: Not qute an endangered species, but very few Saurians are seen in everyday life - probably the most famous one is Drotar, although even he is an exception as most Saurians don't have wings. These reptilian humanoids hail from their dragon ancestors and retain much of their anatomy. Saurians are generally very naturalistic and individual - while they form small tribes, they almost never live in city-like proportions.

Natural Alignment: True Neutral
Maximum Stats: 20 20 17 21 17 18
Permitted Classes: Druid, Fighter, Mage, Pacifist
Strengths: Strong, resilient, reliable and intelligent
Weaknesses: Easy to attack due to poor magic resistance and dodge rate; will run out of mana quickly
Racial Bonuses: +10% chance-to-hit; -10% chance-to-fizzle


ADDENDUM: Possibly... Saurian Druids get different morphs based on reptiles - currently though, the only one I can think of that would fit is a Wyvern (a two-legged dragon that cannot breathe fire).

POST SCRIPTUM: +5% damage etc does not apply to spells, but does apply to Assassinate, Rapid Fire etc.

Edited by Crane, 19 August 2010 - 12:29 AM.

[Pureza]

Some new races would be awesome to see in game. Unfortunately it would require some coding and balancing work and even with the playerbase increasing as much as it has, I don't see any coding/balancing work being done on the server. Assuming this is a suggestion for multi alt.

[Gaddy]

New races would be fun to play about with.
Obviously some checking and balancing would need to be done, but how different could they really be?

[Crane]

Ultimately not too different, I don't think. You just have to be sure that the balance of stats isn't overpowering. For example, a Saurian Mage could be relatively decent with spells and quite a tank in terms of HP, but that is offset by their low Wisdom, meaning they don't fare as well against other magic users and will run out of mana much faster. They are also much easier to hit due to only 17 Dexterity.

The Drow and Saurian are meant to be pretty powerful in two regions that are normally in opposition (e.g. Strength and Dexterity, and Strength and Intelligence), but as a consequence, another stat is much lower, making the unusual power a little bittersweet.

I am wondering about allowing Half-Dwarves to be Mages... if that makes sense in terms of role-play and their stats aren't too overbalancing. They would have more HP than most Mages (but not quite as much as Saurians), but their attack power is fairly mediocre (comparable to a human) and they have lower Dexterity. It will give their 19 Intelligence some use!

Oh, and possibly a Saurian Thief too, since their stealthy reptilian ways and high Constitution will make it an okay choice, along with their +10% chance-to-hit bonus. Main reason being is that they have high strength, but only two of their classes actually use it extensively (Druids and Fighters), although otherwise Saurians share a number of similarities with Gnomes. Dwarves will probably be better overall though - discuss.

POST SCRIPTUM: It is a suggestion for both servers, although 1-alt won't allow Pacifists, of course.

Edited by Crane, 19 August 2010 - 12:39 PM.

[Crane]

Something to help those wishing to balance the races:

Drow (or Dark Elf) - Strong, agile and intelligent, but physically frail (will have lower HP than all the other races). They are more likely to hit the mark while underground thanks to their 'darkvision', and are normally better at hiding in shady areas, allowing for deadly ambushes. Can be Clerics, but not Pacifists. Cannot be Berserkers as they frown upon losing control, and also due to their high Dexterity and low Constitution.

Half-Dwarf - Cross between a Human and a Dwarf; cannot be naturalists (Druids or Rangers). Mage class open to discussion.

Saurian - Physically imposing, resilient and with above-average intelligence, but have poor magic resistance and dodging ability, making them vulnerable to first strikes. Attuned to nature and magic. Can be Druids, but not Rangers. Thief class open to discussion.


ADDENDUM: Minor correction... Drow are more Neutral Evil than Lawful Evil.

Edited by Crane, 19 August 2010 - 04:49 PM.

[BerserkedFrenzy]

If the Saurian race is to be added, I figure that maybe Saurian druids should have their own unique morph. For example, morphing into Dragons, Alligators, Dinosaurs, Wyvern, etc. It would make more sense. This might give players incentive to train up nice crits.

[Apocalypto]

I think they look pretty balanced. Other than a saurian mage could get 2 wis mods(for a heafty price) and possibly be "too tank".

[Crane]

That was the idea behind the Saurian Mage actually... to be a tank, but not able to deflect hits well or last too long in the field due to their low Wisdom. Though having 2 Wisdom mods plus their -10% fizzle rate would make them quite formidable attackers, their magic resistance would still be average and it wouldn't do much to prevent them from being hit, plus only having 17 Dexterity makes them very vulnerable to things like Assassinate. It's a bit of a risky design, I admit... more HP, but easy to hit. If maths and logic serve me correct, a Saurian Archmaster Mage should have about 30 HP more than other races, and being one-off on Con (i.e. 20) will only lose you 1 HP, but if you fall to 19, then you get a worse per-level gain.

I do like the idea of Saurian Druids having reptilian morphs (but otherwise functioning no differently to other Druids' morphs), although what is appropriate? I omitted Dragons because they're firebreathing, while Wyverns are not. It could probably be explained away though.

POST SCRIPTUM: Conversely, Drow Archmaster Mages will have 30 HP less than the other races... hopefully not too much of a penalty for great Wisdom, good Dexterity and good Intelligence. Hmmm, might be a bit too harsh, but how could the deal be sweetened? I am wondering whether their maximum Wisdom should be increased to 21 - the 16 Charisma will near enough balance out Drow Clerics compared to their High Elven cousins. On a superficial side, Wisdom is the only stat that isn't 21 on at least one race. Still, staff will likely talk about it if they like it enough.

Edited by Crane, 20 August 2010 - 01:11 AM.

[Crane]

A couple of minor adjustments to make certain race/class combinations more appealing, but hopefully keep balance:

Drow: 19 20 20 17 21 16

+1 Wisdom will make Clerics and Mages more appealing for the Drow, as currently, the lower HP for Mages is quite a harsh penalty even with fairly good Dexterity and Wisdom. 21 Wisdom would make Drow Clerics quite strong healers, but this is offset by their low Charisma, making them good for healing other crits but about equal to Elves when it comes to self-healing and dealing with the undead... and of course the low HP is something to watch out for.

Also, superficially, Wisdom is currently the only stat where 21 doesn't appear as a max value.


Saurian: 21 20 17 20 17 18

By swapping Strength and Constitution around, Saurian Druids and Mages are less tank, which has been a concern. Druids will be affected more than Mages by this change, which I believe is for the best too; now, Saurian Mages have to roll perfect Constitution to get the most out of their resilience and have to make with the fact that they can't hold much mana or fend off attacks too well.

[Sneaky]

I like the ideas, however Saurian druids would be way overpowered in my opinion. The use of alts sort of negates the wisdom factor, as alts can carry mana for the druid anyway. 20 constitution would put their hp where, maybe around 310-320? Not too much higher than Humans, but the 21 strength I think is a killer. Druids already do a ton of damage, and don't miss at high levels. Plus, items like Gauntlets of Virtue and Liveoak Aegis put the druid's strength at 24, before spells.

What would the HP difference be between Elf/Gnome and Drow mages? And what about the MP difference?

I really like the idea of Drow. There are plenty of Drow's in game, it would be cool to be able to play as one.

[Crane]

You might be right with the Saurians, but if both their Strength and Constitution were lower on top of their 17 Dexterity and Wisdom, then they wouldn't really appeal all that much. Although saying that, while the pattern of stats are similar to a Dwarf, Saurians are mostly magic users, like Gnomes. Do you think it should be 20 Strength, 21 Constitution as before? Admittedly, they may need more reviewing.

Drow Mages would likely have about 30 HP less than Elves and Gnomes at level 30, maybe just over 220 HP, while Saurians would have 30 HP more. For MP I'm not so certain, although I imagine the MP difference between Gnomes and Elves would be similar between Elves and Drow, so maybe around 20 MP or so?

NOTE: For Mages, there is only 1 HP difference between 20 and 21 Constitution, I believe... like 18 and 19 Constitution.

[Sleeping]

You might be right with the Saurians, but if both their Strength and Constitution were lower on top of their 17 Dexterity and Wisdom, then they wouldn't really appeal all that much. Although saying that, while the pattern of stats are similar to a Dwarf, Saurians are mostly magic users, like Gnomes. Do you think it should be 20 Strength, 21 Constitution as before? Admittedly, they may need more reviewing.

Drow Mages would likely have about 30 HP less than Elves and Gnomes at level 30, maybe just over 220 HP, while Saurians would have 30 HP more. For MP I'm not so certain, although I imagine the MP difference between Gnomes and Elves would be similar between Elves and Drow, so maybe around 20 MP or so?

NOTE: For Mages, there is only 1 HP difference between 20 and 21 Constitution, I believe... like 18 and 19 Constitution.

I believe JLH's formulas are not linear but exponential. So 20-21 increase won't nessessary give you same effect, as 18-19 one.

[Crane]

After discussing things with Sleeping quite a bit, I'm willing to accept that Saurians are a bit overpowered, and needing adjustments - I can suggest new stats until the cows come home, but it needs staff and administrator discussion due to subtleties in the formulae. Admittedly I'm trying to make the race appealing to all the classes it can be... while giving Drow 21 Wisdom is probably doable to offset a Drow Mage's low HP, it's a bit harder with Saurians.

Considering I envisioned Saurians to be naturalistic and primarily magic-users, it's probably fair to keep Saurian Fighters around only as a novelty (and possibly Thieves, like the Gnome Thief).

Of course, if it can't be balanced for the game, it might have to be scrapped, even with subtle racial bonuses to accommodate for shortcomings. At the moment I'm leaning towards taking more Strength off... that is:

19 20 17 21 17 18

Equal in strength to Human Druids, but still with their Dexterity and Wisdom penalties. They have a lot of negative stats now, but their racial bonuses help balance out some of their shortcomings:

+10% chance-to-hit (might be reduced to +5% if balance testing dictates it should be) takes away some of the loss from Dexterity, but still makes them vulnerable to attack. It also makes "mêlée Mages" a viable choice if they run out of mana... they could use a Staff of Light to leech mana off an enemy magic user (Sleeping's insight)... and their Human strength would make the damage a little more worthwhile. Druids rarely miss while morphed, so their chance-to-hit bonus at high levels has a relatively minimal effect. The main problem, of course, is that they can't avoid hits too well.

-10% chance-to-fizzle (might be reduced to -5% if balance testing dictates it should be) to offset fizzling problems with low Wisdom. Stops them from being too mediocre as Druids and Mages when using spells.

I would probably say no to Saurian Fighters and Thieves now, looking at their stats, and mostly make them the Half-Orc version of the magic user in terms of their classes... Druid, Mage and Pacifist. (Saurian Pacifists get +3 damage to Depurate Undead over Dwarves, but lose out on Dexterity and maximum mana... if this is too much, it can be removed and left with just Druid and Mage)

On another note, I'm leaning towards "yes" for Half-Dwarf Mages... similar HP to Saurian Mages, have better Dexterity and Wisdom, but weaker attacks.

Edited by Crane, 22 August 2010 - 10:16 AM.

[Crane]

NOTE: In comparison, Saurians appear to have a lot of negative stats with nothing truly special on the surface; as a result, along with them only being able to play Druids, Mages and Pacifists, this will make them unpopular, which is partly the intention because, as my lore dictates, very few Saurians co-exist with the other races, possibly less so than Drow.

However, from a practical point of view, the Saurians' specialities are their racial bonuses, which have a more profound effect in comparison to the other races. For example, they get a +10% chance-to-hit bonus everywhere, and this is cumulative with effects such as Gaea's Blessing; and -10% chance-to-fizzle is more profound than the Gnome's -5%.

In conclusion, the true special feature of the Saurians are their racial bonuses. Mind you, it all depends on if the staff, and JLH, want to introduce new races, and if so, if they need adjusting after a period of play-testing.


In regards to new races as a whole, it will rekindle interest in training new characters and, on a small scale, alleviate some issues regarding excess gold and items. It may not attract new players by itself, but it would give existing players a new incentive, a new chance to experiment with different pros and cons (e.g. the Drow's good offensive potential offset by their low HP, and the Saurians' high endurance offset by poor self-defence) and show that the game is still evolving.


POST SCRIPTUM: Just to keep it all together, here are the race suggestions after discussion and my own rebalancing (note that it goes without saying that none of them can be Pacifists on the 1-alt server):

Drow:

Backstory: It is rare, but not unheard of, for a Drow to forsake their underdark origins and join the denizens of the sunlit world, although that doesn't mean they let go of their roots easily. Their philosophy is very much survival of the fittest, thanks to being raised in a hostile, lightless environment; nevertheless, they struggle to adapt to sunlight, and so while they retain their strength and agility, they are not as resilient as they could be.

Natural Alignment: Neutral Evil
Maximum Stats: 19 20 20 17 21 16
Permitted Classes: Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Ranger, Thief
Strengths: Very good Strength/Dexterity ratio; very good self-defence
Weaknesses: Frail (low maximum HP), low Charisma
Racial Bonuses: +5% chance-to-hit while underground; +5% damage in shady areas
Notes: Are the only race that can be Clerics but not Pacifists, and Rangers but not Druids.


Half-Dwarf:

Backstory: It is not only Elves who find true love in a Human, sometimes a Dwarf does too, and their offspring are, unsurprisingly, Half-Dwarves. They face similar rejection issues as other half-breeds, but are nonetheless a very dependable minority. They are slightly taller than Dwarves, and stockier than humans, and, like Dwarves, prefer the sanctuary of caves over forests.

Natural Alignment: Lawful Good
Maximum Stats: 20 19 18 20 19 18
Permitted Classes: Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Paladin, Thief, Berserker, Pacifist
Strengths: Sturdier than most other races
Weaknesses: Lower Dexterity and Charisma
Racial Bonuses: +2.5% damage while underground; +2.5% experience
Notes: Cannot be naturalists (Druid and Ranger).


Saurian:

Backstory: Not qute an endangered species, but very few Saurians are seen in everyday life - probably the most famous one is Drotar, although even he is an exception as most Saurians don't have wings. These reptilian humanoids hail from their dragon ancestors and retain much of their anatomy. Saurians are generally very naturalistic and individual - while they form small tribes, they almost never live in city-like proportions.

Natural Alignment: True Neutral
Maximum Stats: 19 20 17 21 17 18
Permitted Classes: Druid, Mage, Pacifist
Strengths: Resilient, reliable and intelligent
Weaknesses: Poor self-defence; cannot hold much mana
Racial Bonuses: +10% chance-to-hit; -10% chance-to-fizzle
Notes: Tank-like magicians. A lot of their strength comes from their racial bonuses.


Possible extra... Saurian Druids get a few unique morphs: Wyvern is my only current one at present.

Edited by Crane, 24 August 2010 - 10:04 PM.

[Sleeping]

Up ^.^

[Crane]

Seems the Saurians are the most controversial of the 3 suggestions due to balance concerns. I was pondering about allowing them to be Rangers, sacrificing Dexterity for more HP and playing on their naturalistic tendencies... mind you, this will break their magic-only race mechanic a bit and put them on a similar pegging to Gnomes.

Edited by Crane, 07 September 2010 - 11:53 PM.

[Crane]

For the Drow and Saurian, I was partly wanting their racial bonuses to have more of a profound effect than the other races, especially for Saurians. But a little question:

As opposed to +5% damage in shady areas, should Drow get +5% chance to dodge in Underground areas instead? That is, an overall effective +5% Dexterity in Underground areas. The role-play reason is due to their Darkvision giving them an edge over opponents. It also allows Drow Rangers to seriously rival Halflings, but only in particular locations - everywhere else the little guys still rule supreme, more or less.

Edited by Crane, 17 September 2010 - 01:05 AM.

[Crane]

One for the staff to answer more than anyone... if the Drow has +5% chance to dodge underground as well as +5% chance to hit, should they have 20 Wisdom as opposed to 21? Not sure myself due to the balance/appeal issue (i.e. a Drow Mage with 20 Wisdom may not appeal too much, since they're down on spell power and HP already).

[IXThunderDomeXI]

I thought I would bump this topic because I believe it is a really good idea.

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