25 replies to this topic

[Walt]

This was spoken about in clan chat yesterday briefly, but seems like a good idea for the community to have a say in it...

The ability of stealing should only be used to rob another player. Robbing npcs only makes them that much more OPed, as others would say. Thieves are the only class to have a non cobalt type vamp weapon, so why not make them use it to make their gold.

Stealing gold from npcs puts the rest of the non thief using players of the realm at a disadvantage. With more and more characters in need of gaining colisium tokens for leveling past 30, the expenses just keep racking up as the days progress. Combine this with the fact that all other classes have no dotw type weapon, and bam, extra work with little to no profit.

Now imagine if a whole stretch of an area is robbed, you may have to kill multiple mob before seeing any real gold. That means more exp gained, and getting red/capped faster, in turn, making the non thief users more frustrated. This could lead to fewer log ons by such players, in turn, a smaller player base. I have seen in years past that a larger player base, is a happier player base. A player base that does not have to work as hard seems pretty happy. Having to work doubly hard is just frustrating, whether it be on a game as nm, or at your "9-5 job."

Another idea to deter thieves from stealing gold from mobs if it won't be taken away, is to make stealing a negative exp gain. Not just some nominal number, but something that will, in fact, make a big difference. Something along the lines of -200ish or so per every gold stolen. If you are at a boss, you could nick up to and sometimes more than 3k on your first swipe at stealing. Seeing 600k of hard earned exp taken away in a split second could be a nice deterant.


Yeah or nay Nightmist?

[Shera]

To be honest i dont see anything thats wrong with thieves stealing gold from mobs. I totally understand your argument though walt.

The main problem i see with thieves is there ability to go covert.
An assassin, as i see it, should be someone who lays in wait and ambushes there target.

My oppinion is, they should not be able to move covert. Coverting on a square is fine, aslong as there is noone there. But once an assassin has found a place in an area to hide, hes not likely to start supersneaking around an entire map staying hidden.

but yeh.

<3 Jase

I do see how they are ment to be sneaky beaky when they move around though, i just think its too much.

[Gaddy]

Now imagine if a whole stretch of an area is robbed, you may have to kill multiple mob before seeing any real gold. That means more exp gained, and getting red/capped faster, in turn, making the non thief users more frustrated. This could lead to fewer log ons by such players, in turn, a smaller player base. I have seen in years past that a larger player base, is a happier player base. A player base that does not have to work as hard seems pretty happy. Having to work doubly hard is just frustrating, whether it be on a game as nm, or at your "9-5 job."

Does it have to be imagined, or is this currently the case?

However, if it is bothering the high level thieves, rather than helping them, it is acting more as a balance than a overpowering ability. If the high level thieves are the ones who are taking the most advantage of stealing...well, why is it being pointed out by them?

[Shera]

Because walt understands that thieves are overpowered, hence why he plays one. Just because you play a certain class, doesnt mean he cant see they're overpowered and want to do something to encourage the rest of nightmist.

[ice_cold]

Now imagine if a whole stretch of an area is robbed, you may have to kill multiple mob before seeing any real gold. That means more exp gained, and getting red/capped faster, in turn, making the non thief users more frustrated. This could lead to fewer log ons by such players, in turn, a smaller player base. I have seen in years past that a larger player base, is a happier player base. A player base that does not have to work as hard seems pretty happy. Having to work doubly hard is just frustrating, whether it be on a game as nm, or at your "9-5 job."

Does it have to be imagined, or is this currently the case?

However, if it is bothering the high level thieves, rather than helping them, it is acting more as a balance than a overpowering ability. If the high level thieves are the ones who are taking the most advantage of stealing...well, why is it being pointed out by them?

its not just stretches of area. sometimes its most areas that have been robbed. before i had a thief it was a constant to see stuff in rax, lf, rg, wattlings, gnome , south of resthaven all stolen from at the same time, and thats just a small portion of what was stolen from. its hard pressed to find some bosses and mobs anymore that you dont have to run through an entire time to see more then 20 gold.

It doesnt make a whole lot of sense to be able to steal from monsters, but you remove it and they now become assassins and in no sense thieves. most high lvl thieves will click someone before trying to steal from a player.

main problem i see with thieves is that thier assassinates hit almost every round, its very rare to miss a round unless they have a decent ammount of dex and lvls on you.

[Apocalypto]

Kill the entire area, then re-rob it. Not supported. This is the least of the worries about thieves. They are overpowered because of 'Assassinate', not because of 'Steal Gold'... The exp thing is a little smarter, but i still dont see this as needed...

[Cadabra]

It is actually a good idea to stop people making so much gold but then why would it matter? All thieves have to do then is roll up and click their target and get what they was gonna stael anyways.

Assassinate is too powerful, that is the problem.

[Cruxis]

Well, I'd agree it's a little OP'd, seeing as it's possible to make about 120k-160k an hour robbing stuff. On the other hand, that is the only part. I believe they should be able to steal off mobs, but stealing 1/3 of total gold in a single stam is a bit much.

I might of even made a topic about it awhile ago..

But with it being available since 1a started, just like certain other things that should be changed but weren't (cobalt and dotw), I would of assumed nothing but that famous staff response would've come out of it.

Kind of off topic:

Then again, I like thieves being there because they're thieves, not assassins. On main, a class isn't a class, it's damage or healing. On 1a, the classes have potential to be much more different in how they train and make gold. Thieves have low attack, low defense, and don't kill monsters too easily, but unique only to them, they can steal gold. Sadly the game mechanics didn't seem to want to support that with the addition of lvl 30-40.

Thinking of the word..balance. It is to keep perfect, if you give, you must take away. If you add in a certain place, you must add in the others. When 31-40 came out, it gave a huge boost to the offensive of crits, some more so than others. Not only did it effect the crits much differently, but nothing was put on the defense. Although there are no new weapons being added (which "should" balance with no new armor), crits gain damage when they level. As far as I know, there is no natural defense a crit gains when they level. That alone would screw up alot of things, such as the weakest class PVP becoming the strongest in a matter of a single stamina gain. Although I believe most of the blame goes to the 75% armor peirce.

Anyway, like I commented before. Stamina/Equipment/Game mechanics should be looked at before any individual class skill if a good balancing is to be done.

[Walt]

Now imagine if a whole stretch of an area is robbed, you may have to kill multiple mob before seeing any real gold. That means more exp gained, and getting red/capped faster, in turn, making the non thief users more frustrated. This could lead to fewer log ons by such players, in turn, a smaller player base. I have seen in years past that a larger player base, is a happier player base. A player base that does not have to work as hard seems pretty happy. Having to work doubly hard is just frustrating, whether it be on a game as nm, or at your "9-5 job."

Does it have to be imagined, or is this currently the case?

However, if it is bothering the high level thieves, rather than helping them, it is acting more as a balance than a overpowering ability. If the high level thieves are the ones who are taking the most advantage of stealing...well, why is it being pointed out by them?

I don't think it bothers many of the high level thieves at all. I said all of the non thief users it hinders. Most of the higher level thieves can easily clear out a small stretch of an area, and go back and forth with ease. The lower level, non thieves have a more difficult time.

It is actually a good idea to stop people making so much gold but then why would it matter? All thieves have to do then is roll up and click their target and get what they was gonna stael anyways.

Robbing an area actually takes more time(most of the time) than just killing a mob. I only really rob the easier to get to bosses when the oppertunity is there.

The exp thing is a little smarter, but i still dont see this as needed...

I like this as an alternative to having the steal gold taken away. If you want to be lazy, and not kill a mob, then you should just loose exp instead. Think of it as inverted power training.


Another idea that ould be done if staff and the player base think it is possible is to make the more common training areas not stealable, that way anyone traing is sure to get some gold in their pockets, instead of only gaining exp.

[Cruxis]

It is actually a good idea to stop people making so much gold but then why would it matter? All thieves have to do then is roll up and click their target and get what they was gonna stael anyways.

Robbing an area actually takes more time(most of the time) than just killing a mob. I only really rob the easier to get to bosses when the oppertunity is there.

Most of the time.. The only things thieves kill faster than they rob are things they can click with their regain, i.e. 3-4 stam. Unless your talking about fully robbing a monster, but then who would waste 10 stam stealing their last 50 gold when their first 450 only takes 3stam. I'd simply move to the next monster.

Maybe just make a steal gold formula based on your character, instead of based on how much gold the monster has. The only downside to that would be stealing from lowbie monsters in a single stam, so if any change is made, I'd still support just cutting to fraction to about 1/5 instead of about 1/3.

An even crazier idea though, maybe monsters should refresh their hp/gold everytime they spawn, instead of nothing happening when there's a monster already on the square. Not only would it stop the "problem" of steal gold that Walt stated, but it'd let thieves continue to be thieves, and they can steal gold endlessly. (i.e., logging on and stealing an area, and logging off, since repeat, never get pk'd cause of covert). But if that were to happen, the gold they make would be even more insane, and they'd definitely need an adjustment somewhere else.

The direction of a solution to go towards does need a question to be asked..does Nightmist want thieves, or assassins? A combo of both is too strong, for it implies badass gold, and badass killing ability. But if that's what Nightmist wants, I guess they'll continue to have both. Atleast they don't also get exp extremely easily....right?

[ice_cold]

An even crazier idea though, maybe monsters should refresh their hp/gold everytime they spawn, instead of nothing happening when there's a monster already on the square. Not only would it stop the "problem" of steal gold that Walt stated, but it'd let thieves continue to be thieves, and they can steal gold endlessly. (i.e., logging on and stealing an area, and logging off, since repeat, never get pk'd cause of covert). But if that were to happen, the gold they make would be even more insane, and they'd definitely need an adjustment somewhere else.

I don't think you quite understand how overly detrimental this would be to the game. All that would happen is said thieves then sit on 1 square, never moving, stealing gold completely undetectable until they can buy a cobalt...

[Apocalypto]

Not being able to move covert would make them more fair, and the argument that they are a class that WAITS in the shadows to attack, rather than to be an invisible tank, makes way more sense.

Edited by Apocalypto, 22 September 2009 - 04:03 AM.

[Gnarkill]

Interesting thought on thieves not being able to move covert, would this also apply to druids who cast a spell to blend(camo) into thier surroundings? making mages the only class to be able to move covert since they actually cast a invisibility spell? or would it apply to mages also?

[Apocalypto]

Considering druids are camouflage and not covert i dont see your attempt at sarcasm to be on point... a covert, used in the noun form, is a place to hide or take shelter... wearing camouflage, whether it be painted on or whether it be a magical spell that gives them their concealment., iis used so that you cant be seen easily in the surrounding area.... which leads to the thought, they would be able to be seen occasionally ... maybe on a small % "You spotted something moving in the brush"... would obviously make since that they would be seen easier in certain areas, in which this % could be raised...


We all know the definition of invisible dont we?..

[Shera]

Agreed. Mages should be able to move covert because there spell is invisibility. They are totally invisible. I do also think, that druids camoflage should have the chance to be seen that thieves have at the moment. Because yes, a druid moving camo would have a slight chance of being seen. But thieves should not be able to move covert, but only have the ability to be covert if they stay on the same square.

AGREEING IN DIS.

[Prototype]

Thieves shouldn't able to go covert in empty area's, like grassy meadows etc, or just any square that has nothing to hide behind, like open plains (desert amongst others).
Druids shouldn't be able to camouflage in cities or in buildings, their camouflage ability comes from their nature side, so it makes sense.
Mages should be able to invis everywhere.

Besides these things making sense role playing wise, they would also give the ability back to the class that it should belong to in the first place (mages). Also it means druids can't track innocent players inside the safety of the walls to wait for them to move onto a pk square. And it stops thieves from being able to jump players everywhere.

An old suggestion for 1a2..back in the day..

[Apocalypto]

Agreed. Mages should be able to move covert because there spell is invisibility. They are totally invisible. I do also think, that druids camoflage should have the chance to be seen that thieves have at the moment. Because yes, a druid moving camo would have a slight chance of being seen. But thieves should not be able to move covert, but only have the ability to be covert if they stay on the same square.

AGREEING IN DIS.

Thieves shouldn't able to go covert in empty area's, like grassy meadows etc, or just any square that has nothing to hide behind, like open plains (desert amongst others).
Druids shouldn't be able to camouflage in cities or in buildings, their camouflage ability comes from their nature side, so it makes sense.
Mages should be able to invis everywhere.

Besides these things making sense role playing wise, they would also give the ability back to the class that it should belong to in the first place (mages). Also it means druids can't track innocent players inside the safety of the walls to wait for them to move onto a pk square. And it stops thieves from being able to jump players everywhere.

An old suggestion for 1a2..back in the day..

I could agree with either of these notions. I could probably agree with both actually....

1) Thieves shouldnt be able to move covert period, more less the insane amount they currently can move while vert with whispering moccasins and gauntlets of faravar. Also agree with the notion that they wouldnt have anywhere to hide in certain area's.

2) Druids should not be able to camo in cities. Druids should also have a chance of being detected upon entering a square.

3) Mages go invisible ..

The role playing aspects are clear. Thieves covert by using the particular spot they are in. Druids are actually using magic to become a part of nature, in said specific area. Such as a camouflage shirt would keep you mostly hidden. Thus they should be able to move, but should also be able to be detected. Whereas, thieves should not be able to move due to the fact they should be stationed while covert. Why? Because they are lurking in the shadows WAITING for a surprise attack. Not running and bouncing from one spot they cant be seen to another. They have nothing on them hiding them, its where they are hiding that shields them. Im not barack obama, and i support change.

[Cruxis]

An even crazier idea though, maybe monsters should refresh their hp/gold everytime they spawn, instead of nothing happening when there's a monster already on the square. Not only would it stop the "problem" of steal gold that Walt stated, but it'd let thieves continue to be thieves, and they can steal gold endlessly. (i.e., logging on and stealing an area, and logging off, since repeat, never get pk'd cause of covert). But if that were to happen, the gold they make would be even more insane, and they'd definitely need an adjustment somewhere else.

I don't think you quite understand how overly detrimental this would be to the game. All that would happen is said thieves then sit on 1 square, never moving, stealing gold completely undetectable until they can buy a cobalt...

If I sat on a square with a monster that spawned every 10 minutes and had 1k gold (besides maybe some monsters in tirantek, I doubt any monster that spawns every 10 minutes has even 1k), I would be making 6k an hour. That seems..very overpowered? It may be detrimental though, for I don't know the meaning of the word. Perhaps putting no effort into the game? Like clicking small snakes while I watch tv? Covert makes thieves a no effort class, and dotw just adds to that.

Undetectable? lol, if your alone, and you kill a robbed mob, and they refresh, you know a thief is closeby. That's a nice free warning. If there's a party with a cleric, you can follow the trail of robbed mobs, vision and kill the thief. The playerbase isn't big, people could probably fit all possible persons on their macros. Though, that may be unfair to the thief. Since this idea would require coding, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much trouble to add in that refresh doesn't happen if a player is on the square, invisible or not. It can be done with spawns, so I'm sure it's possible. Though that may require every monster to be gone over, which is alot of work for someone.

The reason I said the gold would be insane, is they could still only make about 120-160k an hour, but they'd be able to make that every hour of play, instead of waiting for monsters to be cleared, but that doesn't matter for some areas currently, since they get alot of traffic. Currently I can make about 100k an hour (6stam thief), 60% is definitely way too much more, and they'd need an adjustment elsewhere. Though like I said before, it depends if Nightmist wants thieves, or assassins. Don't forget the reset thief steal gold rush, automatic everything has gold. Monsters refreshing hp and gold wouldn't be as big as an impact as you think. Hell, your idea can and probably is done in certain places by just dragging monsters and letting new ones spawn. There is a limit, but the limit depends on the area, and some areas..are pretty big.

I guess it's true what they say, crazy ideas get crazy responses. Enjoy.

Edit: And aswell, I support the idea of thieves not moving covert, and druids being having a % chance to be seen. This would fix steal gold in a way, since you can't go to the next monster covert, stealing becomes much more of a hassle, and requires pots, but it might make steal gold a tad worthless. Still, I think it's the best idea so far, since dotw will still make thieves the most dominant in gold, which of course they should be.

Edit2: I'm just putting random ideas out there, this is the 3rd one this topic? All my ideas are independent and don't coincide with each other, or others idea. i.e. thieves not being able to move covert + monsters refreshing, wouldn't be a desirable idea I wish portrayed to staff.

Edited by Cruxis, 22 September 2009 - 10:42 PM.

[Apocalypto]

Why are we talking about stealing gold as if there is a fast amount of places to rob. The desert gets robbed. The museum gets robbed, excluding arrowheads . Misty Path gets robbed. Rose Garden gets robbed. Hedge maze gets robbed. The desert rewards the people using it in high exp, although sometimes it is robbed. Its still worth the exp, plus you could always rob the spawns to assure that the same bandit will not make away with the fresh spawns gold. (IE you dont lose anything).. museum, hedge maze and rose garden seriously dont take that much time to clear out, and the same principal is applied. Do to others how they do you, or something like that. As for mobs refreshing gold, i would have to say im against that. Grab a mage and a thief and you can rob every square of certain area's with ease. Which will be the method of how steal gold will be used if this change is made. For the record, i strongly feel it should.


edit: 'the change'= Thieves inability to move covert. Druids becoming vulnerable to other players detection. And finally, i also agree about thieves not being able to covert in open areas, along with druids not being able to camouflage in civilization.

Edited by Apocalypto, 22 September 2009 - 10:37 PM.

[Hustle]

i suppose i agree with the druids camo being detectable much like a thiefs cover is now
and thiefs not really being able to move very fast like they used to lol makes more sense

and this would be cool for mages because they get an edge above all 3 of the peoples now which helps them out

i dont really think steal gold needs messed with honestly i mean yea it can be a pain when you go out training and allmost 90% of the time 50% of the monsters are robbed, lol but i think the suggestion above will help fix this like he said, it make it more pain than anything

i dont think damage or anything needs to be messed with for thiefs assassinate except i dont think they should go threw armor like they do unless they are covert, considering they dont have the advantage of taking the time to spot out a enemys weak spot like most say because the other person is aware they are there and if they truely are worthy to fight then they would know to guard their personal weak spots during a battle.

and as for dotw people we might aswell give them that cuz it cant be changed now its WAY to late so no need in crying anymore over it lol

them changes alone would help balance thiefs overall a little more imo (other classes would need adjusting slightly aswell)

and good job walt for helping the cause lol

[Gnarkill]

Considering druids are camouflage and not covert i dont see your attempt at sarcasm to be on point... a covert, used in the noun form, is a place to hide or take shelter... wearing camouflage, whether it be painted on or whether it be a magical spell that gives them their concealment., iis used so that you cant be seen easily in the surrounding area.... which leads to the thought, they would be able to be seen occasionally ... maybe on a small % "You spotted something moving in the brush"... would obviously make since that they would be seen easier in certain areas, in which this % could be raised...


We all know the definition of invisible dont we?..

Wasn't being sarcastic at all I was simply asking what people thought about the mages invisibility and druids camou because I believe we will have the same discussion about those down the road when people start complaining camo and invis are overpowered. I'm trying to think of the bigger picture instead of just one class, if staff would green light a balancing project with the thieves why not knock off all 3 at once? /shrug

[Apocalypto]

yesir, i noticed that. i just didnt edit it lmao

[Momba]

Someone please give Walt his medication. A thief player making such an insane suggestion. This will only help in leveling the playing field and that isn`t good at all. I suggest we forget Walts suggestion please. Will staff step in and lock this crazy thread before the poor fella inspires some member of staff to nerf my perfectly balanced thief


Nice idea Walt.

Edited by Momba, 26 September 2009 - 07:09 AM.

[Apocalypto]

/cough, no its not... some noob robs hedge maze daily and i dont see anyone bitching about that, while people continue to pregnant dog that assassinate is way overpowered though... hmm...



edit: perhaps if the ideas above (besides the one originally suggested) were added, thieves would earn the right to have said overpowered attack...

Edited by Apocalypto, 26 September 2009 - 07:25 AM.

[EvilDognapot]

With the playerbase being what it is, I think you might be able to modify the behavior of classes by approaching individuals. Because everyone has every class, you aren't dealing with "thieves," you're dealing with people who play a certain way. The practicality of amending the game mechanics any more than they already are is absolutely laughable considering the size the game right now. If your chess partner consistently uses a tactic that bothers you, it would make little sense to change the rules of chess, just stop playing with them or learn to live with it. It's not like the world is seriously overcrowded.

tl;dr: you: wah wah wah

[Apocalypto]

With the playerbase being what it is, I think you might be able to modify the behavior of classes by approaching individuals. Because everyone has every class, you aren't dealing with "thieves," you're dealing with people who play a certain way. The practicality of amending the game mechanics any more than they already are is absolutely laughable considering the size the game right now. If your chess partner consistently uses a tactic that bothers you, it would make little sense to change the rules of chess, just stop playing with them or learn to live with it. It's not like the world is seriously overcrowded.

tl;dr: you: wah wah wah

Wrong. Everyone has thieves. Everyone being the dominant clan of only thief users. Why not though, they are the easiest, and most powerful class. One could argue that zerkers are more powerful, but they arent near as easy to train and against druids their 'armor' doesnt exactly hold up.