27 replies to this topic

[Payne]

While i was thinking about wanting to party with a fellow friend on the 1 alt server i was thinking that if i was on my berserker in an area like desert. My fellow clannies that are founder/chairman can easily tell "hmm he cant be there alone he must be with his friend". And of course this friend is in an enemy clan. And they can head over and find us and kill my friend and laugh at my face and say red is dead. This is where i thought of the idea.

If i want to toggle my location so anyone i page cant see where i am at. Why cant i toggle my location so my clan founders/chairman cant see my location either? I figured if you want your privacy why cant you have it? i mean in main u can completely hide if u are online or not hehe. Why cant we toggle our location so i cant help founders/chairman use that information to pk. You could also use it on main.. At the crystal giant and dont want a fellow founder to see your location and want to come? /toggle clan loc it up. Imagine if someone in the same clan as you had a grudge with you and only wanted to you dead?, and he was a founder, he can always know where you are and send people to kill you.

What do you guys thing chip in with some more examples to why we should have this and if you support the idea.

[Gnarkill]

Supported.

Not only would this fix the training with friends in other clans issue, but it would put a pretty decent fix on the token issue. Sure people could go and spyglass and check but they would have to do that instead of seeing location in clan. I think its a worthwhile idea as it would bring the "team play" aspect back into 1a between friends who are in enemy clans without having to worry about founders just checking out clan loc and going and ruining trips for them aswell as thier friends.

[Prototype]

For clan to deal with. I don't support the little authority and power a clan has over their members to be taken away.

Furthermore it seems like an issue someone would have with their clan, not with the game itself. If the clan rules state that you shouldn't team up with the enemy, and they have the power to enforce that rule, then I don't see why the game mechanics should aid the renegade.



On a side note, I'm pretty sure every clan will just have the rule that you can't toggle loc yourself from clan. Because now the cats out of the bag we all know what it will be used for.

[Payne]

im guessing u are trying to speak for every clan with that comment of the clan will enforce that. But no one uses it for anything good only bad. You want to use it to see where a clannie is pked? You will only see them in pub. Unless of course there is more than 1 clannie but guess what theyd either get shaded or more than 1 enemy and they die just as fast. No clan would enforce this rule.. if anything only 1 clan would. And the we all know what happens when stuff are based on one thing (look at how bad the leveling system is).

[Prototype]

I don't speak for any clan. I'm saying, what they do isn't 'bad' if it's a founder or chairmans ruling (as they are the ones who can see where you are).

You want this new suggestion, so you can counter a founders decision to look you up. If you don't trust the founders in your clan, or the rules they set up, then I suggest finding another clan, instead of nullifying their powers through game mechanic changes.

[Systema]

what rules are u speaking of? i am not even being forced to do anything so i have no idea what u are talking about rules? stop trying to think that this is about me.

why must every post that helps cope with anti socialism always gets shut down in a game where being anti social is looked down upon. Gotta love it

i guess everyone should just stop posting suggestions because the only ones that go through are the ones suggest by staff i mean why would you be able to hide yourself from /who on main? i bet that was suggested by someone who was tired of getting killed. but no forum post so i wonder who suggested it HMMM

[Prototype]

what rules are u speaking of? i am not even being forced to do anything so i have no idea what u are talking about rules? stop trying to think that this is about me.

why must every post that helps cope with anti socialism always gets shut down in a game where being anti social is looked down upon. Gotta love it

i guess everyone should just stop posting suggestions because the only ones that go through are the ones suggest by staff i mean why would you be able to hide yourself from /who on main? i bet that was suggested by someone who was tired of getting killed. but no forum post so i wonder who suggested it HMMM

And you are? I don't recall speaking to anyone in particular. Only stating why I was against it, also who says it was shot down? I only speak my mind on the subject, people like you who bring outside nuts in that has nothing to do with the suggestion at hand are the people who ruin it for others.

And yea, this time i was directly talking to you.




Can someone please counter the things I said, the sole reason people want this, is so they can't be tracked by their OWN founders. Is it just me or does this sound like you're not in a very trusting clan and it's time to pack your bags if you can't even trust your own commanders.

[Systema]

im sorry i didnt notice my brother was signed in to his name on my laptop but i guess it was hard for you to tell since we've been going back and forth.


"Can someone please counter the things I said, the sole reason people want this, is so they can't be tracked by their OWN founders"

You're so bright today i gotta give it to you. How did u figure that one out by reading my post? cuz i clearly stated that in my first post all the way on the top. But ill end it like like u said its your opinion on the subject.

[Tyler]

I will begin by directly speaking to Maarten on this paragraph. NightMist Online has been against anti-social behavior since September 2001. You simply make him feel like crap, or attempt to. It's people like him that turn these posts into long, successful discussions. After all, he is the one that had the idea and brought it to attention. "People like him" sometimes make the best points within a post.

Sometimes, Founders are appointed due to their power and benefits to the clan. However, this does not always mean they are trustworthy towards every clan member. Or, perhaps someone does not want to give away ideas as to where a good training spot is. I have been exploring as of late, and it would be nice if others didn't simply look and go "oh, how is that spot? I'll have to try it."

And, I'm simply using this as an example. The biggest clan at the moment is Pandemonium. Hell, if I'm a thief, why not try to join. I can get tokens, be pretty safe from half the game, and do bosses. Now, that doesn't mean that I trust the Founders or know them well enough to just go "Hey, here I am. Come get me." Maybe someone wishes for protection, power, the ability to level. The things obtainable "only by Pande," which seems to be the thought process as of late.

I support /toggle loc against Founders and Chairman. I run a clan, along with a few trusted Founders, but can still see where they are coming from. Adding this would not be taking away authority at all, as I hardly call it power that you can see someone's location. A player can block pages, so he should be able to block clans as well. I personally do not care if someone trains with a red, but other Founders might go "Hey ally, go here for a pk." Perhaps some clans may have rules against it, but I believe I have done my best to plead the case. I can think of one clan that would not support this, as this is "Against clan rules." [start sarcasm]And as everyone knows, clan rules can never be changed.[end sarcasm]

Edited by Tyler, 21 August 2009 - 01:00 AM.

[Prototype]

Payne had his opinion, I had mine. I asked for something more convincing (along the lines of what Tyler said would've been a good start), but then you decide instead to ridicule me.

Have a good one.

[Tyler]

I simply state the truth and try to back myself up with what I believe when I post. I don't pay attention to whether the opinion supports friends, enemies, staff, or whatever. I was not trying to ridicule you, but post what I believe you did on that particular post. I actually enjoy you taking a negative turn, as it brings this into a discussion.

As long as everyone can keep this into a discussion and not an argument, I see nothing but positive results whether this goes through or not.

[Prototype]

I wasn't referring to you.

And I almost always go against a suggestion. Besides pointing out obvious flaws, usually when people are challenged they come with better and more complete suggestions. If I had no grain of sympathy for the suggestion at all, I wouldn't have replied in such a short time.

Furthermore, I have no personal agenda, and I have no idea which clans people represent or who they are ingame. I simply tackle the suggestion as I see it. If people would understand that, we'd could have a bunch more foolproof suggestions for a so called short list.

Also I have no problem of anyone going against me, it's actually a big part of the reason why I comment at all, as long as it's relevant to the suggestion at hand.

[Gnarkill]

For the sake of this example lets say Tyler and I are in enemy clans:

I find this new awesome gold/exp spot out of the way noone uses, I would like to share this spot with my friend Tyler who is in a enemy clan. The clans rules are setup so people can not pk while you are on trips with enemies, yet founders in Tyler's clan write down exact locations of where we are when we train and we do train together often. Tyler logs off and his clannies start visiting every spot we were pking Myself and my clannies.. you can argue that monster kill list can also used for this but monster cheack does not give exact locations unless you train off a monster that is only found in one location constantly. I think that adding a ./clan loc toggle would be not only appreciated but used often on 1a,It would be kinda like 1a's answer to main's /toggle who.

I know its not a great example but I think you get the point. Having something like this could also stop the accusations of "you gave my location out!" or whatever within clans. I believe this is a constructive idea for the whole 1a server and not just the smaller clans.

[Sarah]

For the sake of this example lets say Tyler and I are in enemy clans:

I find this new awesome gold/exp spot out of the way noone uses, I would like to share this spot with my friend Tyler who is in a enemy clan. The clans rules are setup so people can not pk while you are on trips with enemies, yet founders in Tyler's clan write down exact locations of where we are when we train and we do train together often. Tyler logs off and his clannies start visiting every spot we were pking Myself and my clannies..

If clan rules say that training with the enemy is not allowed, then I don't see a problem with founders pking. If this is not in the rules, I would think that a founder guilty of this situation should/would be demoted.

It comes down to trust. Founders are appointed for a specific reason, to have authority, to make decisions and rules for the clan. If you don't trust your founders/chairman, then you should probably leave.

I don't support this at all. Why would you feel you needed to keep your location from your clannies? Being in a clan is about trusting each other. And if someone is not deserving of that trust, then a good founder/chairman would remove them.

[Cadabra]

If your current clan tells you that you cant train with a friend who is a clan enemy then maybe that clan isnt for you or maybe you should go join your friends?
Im pretty sure people have their own minds too no?

Idea supported but things are getting mooseed up with this whole clan enemy crap.

Why is it called the solo server if you have clans anyways?

Solution: Delete Clans.

[Gnarkill]

For the sake of this example lets say Tyler and I are in enemy clans:

I find this new awesome gold/exp spot out of the way noone uses, I would like to share this spot with my friend Tyler who is in a enemy clan. The clans rules are setup so people can not pk while you are on trips with enemies, yet founders in Tyler's clan write down exact locations of where we are when we train and we do train together often. Tyler logs off and his clannies start visiting every spot we were pking Myself and my clannies..

If clan rules say that training with the enemy is not allowed, then I don't see a problem with founders pking. If this is not in the rules, I would think that a founder guilty of this situation should/would be demoted.

It comes down to trust. Founders are appointed for a specific reason, to have authority, to make decisions and rules for the clan. If you don't trust your founders/chairman, then you should probably leave.

I don't support this at all. Why would you feel you needed to keep your location from your clannies? Being in a clan is about trusting each other. And if someone is not deserving of that trust, then a good founder/chairman would remove them.

That is your opinion and I respect that but I will bite on this one Sarah. Sure, I trust my clannies and don't need to hide loc from them.. but thats not to say I trust every clan's founders enough to run trips with friends in those other clans. What if a person has good friends in two clans that are enemied? Say you wanna run a trip with Speedy, Tyler and yourself as I understand you are all friends. Speedy is on my nopk, tyler is in my clan, you are red.. Just to be a little rude and start some drama I decide to loc Tyler to go and pk you and then leave the area. Might not bother you the first time or two, but what if Tyler says "eh clan rules" and it continues to happen? You would be less likely to train with your friends just because in doing so your training info is offered to anyone the enemy clan chooses to founder. The game is alot more fun with friends in party and with stuff like this constantly happening you're less likely to train with friends in enemy clans thus making the game boring and more antisocial since we have such a small playerbase. Go ahead and say "then just leave the clan" and then look at where I was and where I am..I chose not to come back to Pande, but others might stay in just to be able to get tokens rather easily and to not get hunted by the "big bad Pande monster". I haven't been pk'd since I left Pande and I don't even think they are looking for me but thats not to say I enjoy all thier founders being able to see my locs if I am with Rob, Vic, Speedy, Jase or anyone.

Edited by Gnarkill, 21 August 2009 - 05:12 PM.

[Payne]

Quite frankly id love to see more reasons to not support this than everyone saying the same thing of "if you dont trust them leave clan" seeing as in 1 alt there are barely many clans to begin with and you would have to be an idiot to leave your current clan just beause you dont trust 1 person. Especially if you are in pande. And "trust"... we are all humans everyone mooses up given the chance even bill clinton moosed up and he was the president of the united states that we chose because we trust him... i really think if you want to opose this suggestion you give us something more than "trust" and a better solution than "leave clan"

Edited by Payne, 21 August 2009 - 05:25 PM.

[Cruxis]

I can see where both arguments are coming from, it's actually hard to make a 100% sure vote.

On one hand, Nightmist has many ways to help PKers along to find pks, and have no consequence for pking except for fact it may happen to you. The game is built more so around pking and betrayal more so than killing monsters and leveling up, that's just sad, and it's what 1a has become.

On the other hand, you should have to be loyal to your clan, which would mean doing things your not always comfortable with, though you can leave if you wish. Sadly, with the playerbase the way it is, if someone in your clan upsets you to an extreme, leaving isn't the first thing on your mind, the first thing usually us "can I have an easy fun experience without these guys help?"

Edit: This can be the same for the chair, you may not want to boot an untrustworthy founder because you worry for the supremacy of your clan. Maybe the others will leave cause they hate the founder, but will they sacrifice their supremacy? It's a never ending cycle of fear and laziness to put effort into playing the game, because some feel others might put more effort and be better than them. Thankfully there are brave souls willing to break this fear and stand up, but for the most part, people don't.

If you can't trust your clannies, but you can't easily play the game without their help, what would you do?

For the first year of 1a (maybe even year and a half), I was always in the top clan, and I've seen this everywhere, people afraid to speak out because of being booted/disliked. It happened in MO, MD, Pande, and DA, as soon as another clan became better, people with problems/trust issues left. Maybe people should swallow their pride and work together, but when you have to just to work with your clannies, something may be wrong.

After looking at everything...I have to agree with Prototype. People should man up, and leave the clans that have lame antisocial founders who just wanna take the enjoyment of the game away from others, and is even willing to do it to their clannies if it means a free pk. Why would you wanna help these people anyway?

Edit: Think of it like a computer virus.

A computer virus (pking) is a minor problem, fixable in an hour or two, or maybe up to a day. The more files you have (the stronger your character is), the more time it'll take to fix. It's annoying and frustrating, but it's not really a problem. Right?

It wouldn't be, cause your not getting viruses all the time, most of them are blocked cause odds are you have virus protection or a firewall. I'm not saying make it impossible, but NM needs a pking firewall, whether it be taking away monster kill list, taking away clan loc, changing the pk limit, and even penalties for pking. It's made too easy to be antisocial on this game.

Edited by Cruxis, 21 August 2009 - 09:21 PM.

[Prototype]

On one hand, Nightmist has many ways to help PKers along to find pks, and have no consequence for pking except for fact it may happen to you. The game is built more so around pking and betrayal more so than killing monsters and leveling up, that's just sad, and it's what 1a has become.

http://www.nightmist...showtopic=31215

Someone started that, which went from tightening the pk limit to some sort of penalty system. But like a lot of rough suggestions that could be shaped in something worthwhile, it dies out before something proper comes from them.

[Walt]

Instead of taking away the ability to locate your fellow clan members, and hiding like a coward like other servers do. Why not make founders locations available to all clan members.

Why do founders have the luxury to hide their locations, but clan members do not? Most of the servers has 2 degrees of separation with friends/enemy list anyway, so it is not like we do not see who is online with ]/t someone blah blah.

Make all locations available in /clan loc(#). Problem solved. If you are training with a non clan member, and you see a pkers lurking around, a hint could be given. Log off, roll out, covert/hide if you are able to.

[Apocalypto]

For clan to deal with. I don't support the little authority and power a clan has over their members to be taken away.

Furthermore it seems like an issue someone would have with their clan, not with the game itself. If the clan rules state that you shouldn't team up with the enemy, and they have the power to enforce that rule, then I don't see why the game mechanics should aid the renegade.

This is more than an issue that a clan can deal with. I recall times we brought a pande friend along and we worried about the noob founders using locations to find us half the time. I do however see your point that if a founder wants to know where you are, its their right for 'founding' the clan. In which case, the founders or chairmen implement a rule in which this hypothetical command couldnt be used in said clan. Im sure alot of people would be fed up with that rule, but the command only brings good to the game. Dont see why so many of you are hating on it.

On a side note, I'm pretty sure every clan will just have the rule that you can't toggle loc yourself from clan. Because now the cats out of the bag we all know what it will be used for.

/clan disband. If you cant rightfully train with the people that are either willing to train with you, or the people you want to train with, whats the point of being in the clan. If i have my toggle loc on in clan chat (preventing my superiors from seeing my locations) and a founder kills my friend, then no harm no foul. But "cheating" to find us(with clan loc) isn't right.

For the sake of this example lets say Tyler and I are in enemy clans:

I find this new awesome gold/exp spot out of the way noone uses, I would like to share this spot with my friend Tyler who is in a enemy clan. The clans rules are setup so people can not pk while you are on trips with enemies, yet founders in Tyler's clan write down exact locations of where we are when we train and we do train together often. Tyler logs off and his clannies start visiting every spot we were pking Myself and my clannies..

If clan rules say that training with the enemy is not allowed, then I don't see a problem with founders pking. If this is not in the rules, I would think that a founder guilty of this situation should/would be demoted.


It flew to pk the other clan while they were training with our clannies, but like i said, its how you go about finding them. If you legitimately find me and kill me, then good game, but if you have to cheat, then you need to get better at pking and stop being anti-social /wink.

It comes down to trust. Founders are appointed for a specific reason, to have authority, to make decisions and rules for the clan. If you don't trust your founders/chairman, then you should probably leave.

Prior to recent events, there were two clans you could be in. It is likely that you wont always trust one of the founders of the clan your going to join. Thats why i didnt like to promote new founders. Anyways, its not only about trust. I trust all my founders, but i dont think they will respect the fact that im training with the enemy clan. To make it fair, i could still train with said enemy and my clan would have to find us the legit way and not resort to using my location to find my friend. Without the toggle system it comes down to be an issue of respect. However, i think 'both' clans founders would have obviously overridden the members opinion on pking the enemy clan. So with this idea it would make the whole situation more fair.

I don't support this at all. Why would you feel you needed to keep your location from your clannies? Being in a clan is about trusting each other. And if someone is not deserving of that trust, then a good founder/chairman would remove them.

So, if i offered to cleric you and your clan comes and pks me, your not gonna get mad?.. because im pretty sure that would happen....

EDIT: adding a good example

We set out with a small party of us, and a member of pande to kill the giant sand wurm. Tony used his founder position to obviously see that he had to have a cleric with him, meaning he was with us. In attempt to pk us, we owned him. But to me, that is where the respect issue comes back. Tony would rather the said member of pandemonium to set on his character and not get exp rather than to gain some of the best exp in the game, with us. So, to be fair i think this rule would even the playing field a little bit. "If you want to kill my enemy friends, thats fine, but you arent going to use my location to do it" /clan toggle loc. End.

Edited by Apocalypto, 21 August 2009 - 10:15 PM.

[Prototype]

If these big bad founders do this, then why not leave, I start to feel like a broken record in this thread. You calling it 'cheating' to use the game mechanics as they are set isn't helping much either. Also it's pretty normal that you keep in touch with your superiors where you are, tagged, or on trust. Obviously, the trust issue seems to be a problem here. And to be fair, most of you are making the arguments for me to be against it. So players want the benefits of being in a big clan, but they don't want the disadvantages (the being checked upon if you serve the clans goals or your own).

What it comes down to, if you want to be a renegade, be a renegade, and leave your clan if you can't deal with the authority that comes with it.


To look at it another way, we as staff can look where you are located as well. And that authority hasn't even been given by you players, but by game admin. But the authority you give founders in your own right mind, should be taken away? Because you still want to feel safe when you need them, but also like to be able to discard their powers over you when you feel like doing your own thing.

A clan doesn't work that way, I'm sorry to inform you, but this isn't the x-men, and you aren't wolverine. (points for anyone who understands the reference).

[Cruxis]

If these big bad founders do this, then why not leave, I start to feel like a broken record in this thread.

On the other hand, you should have to be loyal to your clan, which would mean doing things your not always comfortable with, though you can leave if you wish. Sadly, with the playerbase the way it is, if someone in your clan upsets you to an extreme, leaving isn't the first thing on your mind, the first thing usually us "can I have an easy fun experience without these guys help?"

Edit: This can be the same for the chair, you may not want to boot an untrustworthy founder because you worry for the supremacy of your clan. Maybe the others will leave cause they hate the founder, but will they sacrifice their supremacy? It's a never ending cycle of fear and laziness to put effort into playing the game, because some feel others might put more effort and be better than them. Thankfully there are brave souls willing to break this fear and stand up, but for the most part, people don't.

If you can't trust your clannies, but you can't easily play the game without their help, what would you do?

Before you call bullnuts, I know of 6 people who want to leave their current clan cause of their so called "rules".

*but said they aren't willing too cause they want to lvl up easier and get a pk pass from pande.*

*Edit: Didn't mean to name any clans, I went afk during an edit, classic Alex fail lol

Edited by Cruxis, 22 August 2009 - 12:13 AM.

[Apocalypto]

If these big bad founders do this, then why not leave, I start to feel like a broken record in this thread. You calling it 'cheating' to use the game mechanics as they are set isn't helping much either. Also it's pretty normal that you keep in touch with your superiors where you are, tagged, or on trust. Obviously, the trust issue seems to be a problem here. And to be fair, most of you are making the arguments for me to be against it. So players want the benefits of being in a big clan, but they don't want the disadvantages (the being checked upon if you serve the clans goals or your own).

What it comes down to, if you want to be a renegade, be a renegade, and leave your clan if you can't deal with the authority that comes with it.


To look at it another way, we as staff can look where you are located as well. And that authority hasn't even been given by you players, but by game admin. But the authority you give founders in your own right mind, should be taken away? Because you still want to feel safe when you need them, but also like to be able to discard their powers over you when you feel like doing your own thing.

A clan doesn't work that way, I'm sorry to inform you, but this isn't the x-men, and you aren't wolverine. (points for anyone who understands the reference).

I hate to inform you, this isnt an issue about being a renegade. Its an issue about enjoying the game to the fullest. Besides, if you want to be a "renegade" so to speak, you cant on the 1alt server due to the fact that you need others to progress in the leveling system. Therefore, sometimes you have to put up with things you dont always want to so you may remain part of a dominant force, that can actually accomplish MOST aspects of the game. Or on the other hand, i can get mass gold from my capped characters since i leave my clan over every little thing and cant get tokens.

[Walt]

Before you call bullnuts, I know of 6 people who want to leave their current clan cause of their so called "rules", but said they aren't willing too cause they want to lvl up easier and get a pk pass from pande.

Well I say that if these 6 people want to leave, then they should. Stop being cowards and go stand out from under Pande's protective wing. These 6 could also be the perverbial power shift the game needs to put Pande in its place.

I say to you 6, stop following, grow a gd set of nutz, and start leading. Cowards.




Edit:(in response to Cruxis' edit)
Even if you did not mention any clans, the only ones who get a pk pass from Pande are Pande members themselves. We have no allies, so everyone other than clan members are fair game.

Edited by Walt, 22 August 2009 - 12:53 AM.

[Tietsu]

This is a rediculous discussion. I agree that it should be put in place. It is absolutely none of my business where my clannies train, if they so choose to undisclose it. There is always an option of turning it on and off.

From what I hear, and if it is indeed fact, Pandimonium has their rule, Red = Dead. You are unable to help an enemy of the clan. Good friends deserve better than that and should leave. I agree with Walt. Leave tyranny behind and feel free to have fun, rather than stress out about your tokens. There are ways to accomplish things, may be harder, but it's a more rewarding feeling.

[Apocalypto]

This is a rediculous discussion. I agree that it should be put in place. It is absolutely none of my business where my clannies train, if they so choose to undisclose it.

Bingo. And if the chairman of a certain clan doesnt agree with said option they can enforce a clan rule about not using it. Which in my opinion would be plenty motivation for disbanding the clan.

[Apocalypto]

Ok, basically this comes down to how you play the game. It is obvious that some people play more serious than others.

For instance, pandemonium has a rule that you cannot train with enemy clans. If this was implemented i would assume the founders of pandemonium would make it known that you couldnt use this new feature in their clan.

In other clans this rule doesnt exist. You can train freely with whomever you want to in most other clans. The catch in Dark Alliance when i played was, i will more than likely pk them even if they are in your party. To be fair i wouldnt pk the enemy sometimes just because i "CHEATED" and knew exactly where they were with clan locations.(and ill say cheat a million times, just because some information that your not suppose to see freely is easily obtainable doesnt mean you should take it or use it) Alot of people would not take the approach i did and often would kill the reds no matter what circumstances. So, basically, this could easily fix that. If i know my clannie is with the enemy and i dont know where my clannie is, i think that is 100% fair game to pk said enemy. On the other hand how fun is it to say, hey my so called friend is training so im going to USE him and his location for a pk. Seems kind of sad that you wouldnt want this implemented.