32 replies to this topic

[Dracoden]

With their low strength and charisma, coupled with their inferior dexterity and wisdom to halflings and elves respectively, gnomes excel in nothing!

Gnomes are in most cases, obsolete. There is nothing a Gnome can do that an elf or halfling cant do better.

Im not saying to give gnomes their dex back, but lets go another direction... why do elves have so many 20+ stats? Sure they are supposed to be wise, intelligent, and charismatic.. but this is just going by a roleplaying stand point.

Going by game balance and roleplay is a tricky thing to do, I know.. but I think gnomes are getting ripped off. They should take the place of the elf on that mage pedestal. Currently, elves excel: cleric, pacifist, druid, mage.. more top dawg pedestals than any other race!

Im not thinking of giving them much.. but the least we can do is give them some little something that makes them stand out. maybe taking away one of the 3 20+ from elves and give gnomes one? lets say wisdom? Whose to say a gnome isnt wiser than an elf anyway?

Switch out gnome wis with elf wis.. not a huge impact, but this I think can help balance out the stats a bit. Gnomes are the only race with 17 str.. cmon guys, they deserve something!

Any other suggestions to this, go right ahead. If you disagree, share your thoughts as well. Nothing is perfect, there is always room for improvement, so dont just disregard everything said and post an ignorant 1-liner. kthx

edit: PS, dont just throw this out because you own an elf mage or whatever. This isnt about you, its about improving the game!

(for the record, I own 2 arch elf clerics, arch elf druid, 2 arch elf pacifists, elf mage.. all 5-stat except the pacifists)

Edited by Dracoden, 08 August 2005 - 11:56 PM.

[Sneaky]

Why are you targeting mages in this topic, when it seems you are saying more stats need to be adjusted besides mage stats.

Gnomes have -5% fizzle rate and +5% counterspell, which is effective.

[Dracoden]

I knew someone would bring that up, but I dont think thats enough. Such a passive ability is hard to notice.. and the latter rarely comes to use. Besides, this latent effect only makes up for the wisdom they are missing in comparison to elves.

And yes, I guess this is a bit more about stats than mages. I think gnomes deserve to excel in something (not simply come to par with elves) since they have rock bottom in one of the more important stats, strength.

(dwarves are the only other races who hit bottom on a stat, save half-orcs, but half-orcs were poorly thought-out in my opinion and are considered an obsolete race except for a challenge)

Edited by Dracoden, 09 August 2005 - 12:32 AM.

[Sneaky]

Elves, in a role-play sense, should be wise, intelligent, and charismatic. What are you suggesting the gnomes should excel in? Rather than just point out the problem, bring it to our attention and offer a possible solution.

[Dracoden]

Dracoden, on Aug 9 2005, 12:44 AM, said:

Switch out gnome wis with elf wis.. not a huge impact, but this I think can help balance out the stats a bit. Gnomes are the only race with 17 str.. cmon guys, they deserve something!

If I may quote myself, I did suggest something. Perhaps not the best suggestion, but its there. Do read more carefully!

[Sneaky]

By post a solution, I meant put it in nunmbers. Post their old stats, your suggested new stats, and specify a reason other than "becuz dey shuld."

This is role-playing game after all, what reason do you have that Gnomes should have more Wisdom than Elves?

[Dracoden]

Do you have a reading problem or something?

Let me break my post down for you...
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You say

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By post a solution, I meant put it in nunmbers. Post their old stats

I say
That is redundant.. anyone who doesnt know the races' stats by now doesnt have any business with this topic to begin with.
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You say

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your suggested new stats, and specify a reason other than "becuz dey shuld."

I said In a previous post

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Gnomes are the only race with 17 str..

AND

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Gnomes are in most cases, obsolete. There is nothing a Gnome can do that an elf or halfling cant do better.

AND Last but not least, my introductory sentence for crying out loud!

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With their low strength and charisma, coupled with their inferior dexterity and wisdom to halflings and elves respectively, gnomes excel in nothing!

There you have it, 3 reasons I already stated. Do I need any more?
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You say

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This is role-playing game after all

Pandilex says

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Roleplay encouraged [IN NIGHTMIST], no.

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You say

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what reason do you have that Gnomes should have more Wisdom than Elves?

I said

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Whose to say a gnome isnt wiser than an elf anyway?

(In other words, I believe a gnome could be just as wise or wiser than an elf--same for intelligence.. since wisdom and intelligence generally go hand in hand)
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I cant make it any plainer than that..

btw, learn English prz.. and save your 3rd degree for someone with a rediculous idea who has not thought it out and may very well fall victim to your 20 questions written with poor grammar! But thats not me!

I am very serious with this post, sir. I thought it out very well, and it offends me that youd stalk the forums just to pounce and trounce on respectable suggestions.

Its obvious you didnt read and/or cant read very well.. otherwise you wouldnt have asked questions answered so plainly in black and white just a few scrolls away.

No hard feelings, but try to be more supportive of your fellow NM players in the future-- rather than so ready to cut them down at the knees!
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Can someone else post please! Perhaps someone of merit..

Edited by Dracoden, 09 August 2005 - 07:40 AM.

[Crane]

Guys, chill out a bit!

Gnomes cannot be given 20 Wisdom, like Elves, because then Gnomes will make Elven Mages obsolete with the essential stats...

Elf: xx 21 19 18 20 xx
Gnome xx 21 20 18 20 xx

...so their maximum base Wisdom cannot be increased.

Gnomes' Dexterity is not quite as good as Halflings' Dexterity, but they have slightly higher Wisdom. Not to mention that Halflings cannot be Mages anyway.

For Mages, Elf vs. Gnome, it is the trade-off between Dexterity and Wisdom - Elven Mages have higher MP, but Gnomes can move faster, and any loss in magic resistance from lower Wisdom is made up for in their natural race bonus.

As for Gnome Clerics, I believe their heal spells (due to higher Wisdom) are slightly better than that of Halflings, with only a slight loss of Dexterity... once again a trade-off between Dexterity and Wisdom. With this class (and Pacifists), there is only a difference of 1 MP between 18 and 19 base Wisdom... all MP gains are identical.

Gnome Thieves and Gnome Pacifists... not many players have them because other races are better there. Still, it is nice to be different.

[Sneaky]

I'm not attacking you!!

Role-playing is not encouraged, but Nightmist is a MUD-RPG game. I feel you would need to give a reason besides "they excel at nothing" to increase a gnome's stats. Although Role-playing is not encouraged, that's the reason the stats are the way they are.

Humans- Versatile, have the ability to choose any class-- but may not really excel in any of them
Elves- An ancient race, who's specialty would lie in the fields of magic
Halflings- Their size makes them quick! (for lack of better words)
Dwarves- Strength...I don't think that needs explaining!
Half-Orcs- Pure, brute force. Again, no need explaining!
Half-Elves- Outcasts of the elves, they are not as good in the fields of magic as an Elf, yet more advanced than a human.
Gnomes- Give your reason for changing the stats here.

I'm not attacking your idea...I have played the game long enough to see that staff will only add ideas/make changes if such additions/changes are well thought out! Your idea just has a few loose ends that need to be tied up.

Personally? I'm training low level clerics, and the Gnomes definatley fizzle less- something that could be essential. Here's how I see it, with cleric choices anyway:

Dwarf- When you're in a tough area that monsters do a lot of damage...you need something that can take what it's dishing out!
Halfling- Their dexterity is extremely helpful when facing other players.
Elves- Heal for the most, essential at hard-hitting bosses.
Humans- Slightly higher HP than an Elf, heals for less though.
Half-Elves- Where I would consider Human's to be the happy median between Dwarf/Halfling and Elf clerics, Half-Elves are that between Humans and Elves. Heals for slightly more than human, with similar HP.
Gnomes- Fizzles less, extremely useful when every last heal counts. The added dexterity helps make sure your cleric won't be rounded by the monster.

[Ryuku]

Crane, on Aug 9 2005, 10:53 AM, said:

Not to mention that Halflings cannot be Mages anyway.

Someone beat me too it before I could uber flame.

[Squee]

In general, elves live much, much longer than gnomes. Not to mention, their race is known for their grace and wisdom - spending their first pre-pubecent hundred years studying philosophy and art (such as swordplay and painting and oratory).

Gnomes reach adult-hood at around (please correct me if I'm wrong) 50 years. Not to mention, gnomes have a tendency to favour fun over philosophy. Not to say that every gnome has the attention span of a gnat but to sit in meditation for hours (or even days) on end is very, very unappealing to a gnome.

This is why elves tend to be wiser than gnomes. Does that mean that every elf is wiser than a gnome? Hardly. It simply means that the majority are.

[Perfection]

i like my gnome mage , use it more than the elf *shrugs*

[Dracoden]

Crane, on Aug 9 2005, 10:53 AM, said:

Gnomes cannot be given 20 Wisdom, like Elves, because then Gnomes will make Elven Mages obsolete with the essential stats...

Elf: xx 21 19 18 20 xx
Gnome xx 21 20 18 20 xx

Slight misinterpretation here, sir.

I suggested that Gnomes have 20 wisdom and elves have 19. Let them have their charisma and keep their intelligence.

btw, if we are going by a role-play standpoint, why did gnomes ever lose their 17 constitution? (yes ive been around for a while too, sneaky) Gnomes are supposed to be small yes? Wouldn't that give them a weak constitution? I always thought giving them 18 con like everrrrything else was a bad move.

I admit, I'm not really one for roleplay, but as I stated in my first post:

Quote

Going by game balance and roleplay is a tricky thing to do, I know

and I will confess, I am more for game balance than roleplay.

Perhaps my idea isnt best, but I can sense there is room for improvement here. This is why I posted my thoughts.. so others would add to it.

Gnomes seem to be missing something, but I cant quite put my finger on it
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Now to clear up some confusion

I realize this has become more about the gnome race than gnomes as mages, sorry about that, but there wasnt really a race discussion forum. I leaned towards putting this topic here because I planned to center it around Gnomes becoming better mages.

So when you saw me giving Halflings as an example against Gnomes, that was, of course, concerning other classes besides mage.
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PS, If i must delve into the fantasy world to justify myself, see this link:
http://faerie.monstrous.com/gnomes.htm it quotes:

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Powers :Most Gnomes are 7 times stronger than a man, can run at speeds of 35 miles per hour, and have better sight than a hawk.

According to this site, gnomes should have highest strength and dexterity lol

I couldnt find many other sites, mainly because of all the damn computer programs and MMORPGs that came up when searching for <Gnomes>. However, Im sure there is a site out there that would argue Gnomes are so intelligent and this that the other.

My point is, roleplay correctness is up in the air.. it bends this way and that according to whichever way you want to look at things. Game balance is more concrete, so why not put most of our marbles in that bag, eh?
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^^v

Edited by Dracoden, 09 August 2005 - 05:59 PM.

[Perfection]

Dracoden, on Aug 9 2005, 06:56 PM, said:

Gnomes seem to be missing something, but I cant quite put my finger on it

My point is, roleplay correctness is up in the air.. it bends this way and that according to whichever way you want to look at things. Game balance is more concrete, so why not put most of our marbles in that bag, eh?

seems ur the only one that feels this way and that they need *something else* .. give us some good reasons game wise why they should be greater or = to an elf, or even be changed at all, not just some reason based on something u have read or heard about *gnomes* as such.. i mean it's all fantasy in end anyways, unless u can show me a real life gnome that is 7 times stronger than man can run at awsome speeds and has eye site like a hawk.. nothin wrong with the good old gnomes as a mage more so than cleric or thief..


gnome mage cast invisibility 25 times, 1 fizzle
elf mage cast invisibility 25 times, 4 fizzle

[Dracoden]

Perfection, on Aug 9 2005, 08:43 PM, said:

seems ur the only one that feels this way and that they need *something else* .. give us some good reasons game wise why they should be greater or = to an elf, or even be changed at all, not just some reason based on something u have read or heard about *gnomes* as such.. i mean it's all fantasy in end anyways, unless u can show me a real life gnome that is 7 times stronger than man can run at awsome speeds and has eye site like a hawk.. nothin wrong with the good old gnomes as a mage more so than cleric or thief..

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give us some good reasons game wise

lol Ive been saying all along the same thing: gnomes do not stack up well with the other races and therefore could use some tweaking. What other reason do I need to make this claim other than that? Perhaps a wisdom change isnt the best way to go, but its where I chose to begin.

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...just some reason based on something u have read or heard about *gnomes* as such.. i mean it's all fantasy in end anyways, unless u can show me a real life gnome that is 7 times stronger than man can run at awsome speeds and has eye site like a hawk..

Once again my post is twisted and used against me. I didnt make the reference to that site to suggest they should be so strong and so fast. I posted that to prove EXACTLY what you just said: its no good to go purely by a roleplay standpoint. I suggest race balance should have more bearing->Precisely why this post was made. This post is bigger than gnomes becoming better mages, its about gnomes in general. I just chose to stick it here for a place to start.
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Maybe I need to stop making such long posts.. by the time people get to the bottom, its like a relay race between their brain cells resulting in a massive breakdown in communication.

Talk about short attention spans..

[Sneaky]

Alright man, who the doink do you think you are? What makes you so superior to us? How do you know what type of education we all have?

Stop making the comments about the brain cells, you ignorant twerp.

[Perfection]

you still have no valid reason for change... same can be said about half orcs for that mater... or any class compare to an elf
i can say i should have all rare items in game just because i think so, does not make it a good idea.. give us something dude, not just u think they should be changed.. so what there str is a little low they still make great thieves.. as clerics there great they fizzle way less than others and have desent wisdom to be effective healers.. as a mage there as strong as an elf have greater dex so have greater chance to dodge attacks.. point out clear problem and people might entertain your suggestions a bit better.. really the only class that they can be that there are no good as is a paci *shrugs*

[Dracoden]

Sneaky, on Aug 10 2005, 06:35 AM, said:

Alright man, who the doink do you think you are? What makes you so superior to us? How do you know what type of education we all have?

Stop making the comments about the brain cells, you ignorant twerp.

Sorry, just aggravates me when I try to say one thing and someone carelessly interprets it as another.
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And, I guess I really dont have any other reason to change their stats other than that they only come to par as clerics/mages and fall behind in everything else they can be. All of the races except gnomes excel in one thing or another, whether it be str, hp, mp, dex, wis/chr, etc~(not counting H-orcs, they are just a novelty race).

I figured posting this would generate more response, good or bad.. but I guess people dont really care one way or the other lol.

To you two diligently replying to try and pick me apart with answered questions, sorry if my reason of suspected imbalance wasnt good enough for you. I know imbalance is by no means grounds for a change lol.

I never meant to make it sound like I had all the answers to the problem. I offered a point to discuss along with a possible solution. I was hoping for a civilized debate, but the only reply I repeatedly get is from 2 who obviously disagree, but go about it by slandering my posts and butchering my words to regurgitate them back to me.

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btw, you guys getting too excited for me, you win. Its driving me crazy how I keep ending up saying things that I dont remember writing. Did I write that I was superior up there somewhere? did I make multiple brain cell comments? I thought I only made one. Did I say something about someones education up there? wth.
I am such an ignorant twerp, I cant even read what im typing. Who knows what this post will say.

Consider the topic closed. Not like even the best thought out suggestions from here would ever reach the game. This might as well be called the wishful thinking forum, because in the end, they will just do whatever they want to do lol.
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sigh, thus is the nightmist community

[Sneaky]

I have never spoken to you (i believe) in-game. I don't have anything against you.

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(for the record, I own 2 arch elf clerics, arch elf druid, 2 arch elf pacifists, elf mage.. all 5-stat except the pacifists)

Maybe before you make the suggestion, try training a gnome. Stats look different on the screen than they do when you play them.

I personally feel the stats are balanced.

I like and respect, however, how passionate you are about this. You do bring up some points, but I feel this idea just isn't needed. I look forward to seeing more suggestions from you. My personality is over-analytical, I tend to overanalyze any little situation. I guess it's followed me on game

[Dracoden]

ah a post I can respect.

I do have a gnome mage too, hes lv 26.

Maybe youre right.. stats probably arent all that bad as they are, I just wanted to throw it out there and see what everyone else thought. Too bad I didnt get much feed back.

[Sneaky]

You did get feedback, just no positive

[Simulation]

My 2 cents.
Gnomes should have 1 more int. Just think about it, gnomes are intelligent creatures, often tinkling with technology, it is only fair that they have 1 more int.

Even though it sucks, I was just stating a fact.

[Sneaky]

Elves live much longer than gnomes, and their intelligence is therefore higher

[Simulation]

Lifespan doesn't have much to do with it. Elves are spiritual creatures, and gnomes aren't. Gnomes are intelligent creatures, and Elves are not.

[Sneaky]

Squee? Where's my favorite role-playing expert....

[Crane]

All right, this is starting to get out of hand... stop attacking each other.

Dracoden, on Aug 9 2005, 06:56 PM, said:

Crane, on Aug 9 2005, 10:53 AM, said:

Gnomes cannot be given 20 Wisdom, like Elves, because then Gnomes will make Elven Mages obsolete with the essential stats...

Elf: xx 21 19 18 20 xx
Gnome xx 21 20 18 20 xx

Slight misinterpretation here, sir.

I suggested that Gnomes have 20 wisdom and elves have 19. Let them have their charisma and keep their intelligence.

Think about it for a second... if Gnomes have 20 Wisdom and Elves only have 19, they would be even worse compared to Gnomes, because now they are down on two vital stats compared to them...

Elf: xx 21 19 18 19 xx
Gnome: xx 21 20 18 20 xx

Can you see? If any stats on Wisdom are changed between Elves and Gnomes in this way, there is virtually no reason to train Elven Mages anymore.

[Dark]

i really dont see the problem gnome mages are alrdy pretty good they have the dex to take on melee fighting characters so they get hit less lasting longer in comparison to elves they alrdy have the upper hand no adjustment is needed,

also this post is gettin retarded Dracoden isnt even listening to what neone has to say

[Dracoden]

Sneaky, on Aug 11 2005, 01:47 AM, said:

You did get feedback, just no positive 

only 3 people had anything to say lol
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Dark, on Aug 11 2005, 11:59 AM, said:

i really dont see the problem gnome mages are alrdy pretty good they have the dex to take on melee fighting characters so they get hit less lasting longer in comparison to elves they alrdy have the upper hand no adjustment is needed

also this post is gettin retarded Dracoden isnt even listening to what neone has to say

no, sir. I was listening. The problem was, none of it made any sense because nobody was listening to what I was saying.

I dont care that anyone agrees with me or not, I just cant stand the stupid posts.. like the one directly above me.
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I see your logic crane, youre probably right. Still, maybe there is something that can be done...

[Perfection]

Crane, on Aug 11 2005, 11:17 AM, said:

All right, this is starting to get out of hand... stop attacking each other.

i only see one person losing there calm, constantly.
this is discussion part of forums unless i'm mistaken

Edited by Perfection, 11 August 2005 - 12:39 PM.

[Gaddy]

Gnomes are quite good.

I'd take a gnome mage over an elf mage so long as they were both good to the same statistics.
20 dex = using boots of time while still having as high of dex as elves start with. Most people have to then use dex mods on their elves due to having lowered dex.
I would instead be able to use gloves of vigor or amulet of blunting (or both or int mod)...while still keeping higher stats than the elf.

Show me equipment on an elf that cannot be beaten by a gnome. The only equip is complete wis/int mods---which leaves them down on dex to a gnome to a point I don't allow in my party (18 dex), or lower on AC.


I'd also REALLY like to use a gnome cleric. I like my ling cleric, but for parties, gnome is what I want to replace em'.