21 replies to this topic

[Crane]

The discussion has been going on for a while now on the Paladin Class Discussion board, so I thought I'd pass the question onto the entire playerbase, hopefully not at the disapproval of the staff. Read up on that topic for some background information.

Should the Paladin class be available to Dwarves and Half-Elves? Currently, Paladins are only available to 2 races, Humans and Halflings... no other class is so exclusive, and I do wonder why that is the case. It is no secret that the Paladin is a heavily underused class, and while giving it access to other races may not boost its appeal by much, it will help a bit.

Personally I am not sure if new races for the class will risk unbalancing the game, but if that fear is profound, I would suggest trialling the two races for, say, a couple of months, and if everything is fine then nothing else needs to be done, but if problems are occurring and it's decided that these two races shouldn't be available after all, then reset all Dwarf and Half-Elf Paladins to level 1 Fighters and disable the relevant option in the roller; I wouldn't delete the crits entirely because they may be nice rolls.

This is my rudimentary analysis of a Paladin of each of the suggested races:

Dwarven Paladin

[+] Hard hitters.
[+] High health.
[+] Attack bonus underground.
[–] Low hit rate.
[–] Weak healing.

Half-Elven Paladin

[+] Strong healing.
[+] Small XP bonus.
[+] Small attack bonus in forests.
[–] Weaker attack elsewhere.
[–] Don't have much to offer over a Human Paladin.

Edited by Crane, 18 November 2009 - 12:34 AM.

[Pureza]

Supported. I just recently started training a paladin of my own. Was curious as to which races could be paladins and would welcome a few more races to train.

[IXThunderDomeXI]

i voted for both of them being put in just seems like a great idea imo

[Apocalypto]

I voted yes because i cant think of a reason this would cause balancing problems for either to be added. The only argument could be made about dwarfs constitution, but i think the dexterity and charisma will balance them out.

Half-elfs should be added for sure. Might as well add dwarfs too.

[Tietsu of TSA]

I personally voted for Half Elf. I ust don't like the RP perspective of a Dwarf wanting glory and honor through the church but more like greed from treasures. Pre-mature annalysis of it though. Dwarves could be a holy race, just never seen'em as such. (Other chan cleric).

[Gaddy]

I don't really see how a race can be a cleric and fighter, but not a paladin.
Clerics cast healing, buffing, armor boosting, party, and mystical spells. Paladins only cast healing and buffing spells. My logic suggests that, if a race can be a cleric and a fighter, the race should have the capabilities of paladins.

[Apocalypto]

I don't really see how a race can be a cleric and fighter, but not a paladin.
Clerics cast healing, buffing, armor boosting, party, and mystical spells. Paladins only cast healing and buffing spells. My logic suggests that, if a race can be a cleric and a fighter, the race should have the capabilities of paladins.

So are you saying that you think elfs should be paladins too? I mean, i agree with your logic, i was just curious to that.

[Prophet]

I don't really see how a race can be a cleric and fighter, but not a paladin.
Clerics cast healing, buffing, armor boosting, party, and mystical spells. Paladins only cast healing and buffing spells. My logic suggests that, if a race can be a cleric and a fighter, the race should have the capabilities of paladins.

By tradition thought dwarves are supposed to be non-religious. (To clarify this they have religion, but its at the bottom of the priorities)

But as I'm not a fan of trying to rationalize things by story lines/role play I would support both of these additions.

One thing to note though is that during my time using level 30 paladins I noticed that higher dex including casting holy speed on yourself didn't seem to make much difference and as such dwarf paladins would be better than other races for paladins, however, haven't tested paladins past level 30 so don't know how this changes.

Edited by Prophet, 18 November 2009 - 09:56 PM.

[Apocalypto]

A cleric is a member of a clergy, and in my opinion is more religious than a paladin.

A paladin is a knight that courageously sets out to defend the weak and oppressed. While they follow a righteous path, and are very noble, i see no reason to say that they are religious. By that i mean, someone who is atheist could set out to right the wrongs of the world without divine power. BUT, nightmist seems to have strayed away from that and made them a religious class. Either way, in terms of balancing and considering role-playing aspects, i dont see any reason the two races should be excluded from the paladin class.


edit: In all honesty, i think half-elves should be able to do anything the human and elf counterparts can do. Meaning i think half-elfs should be able to be both thief and paladin. I know a half-elf thief wouldnt likely be used for a thief, but it doesnt mean it doesnt make since to have it a possibility.

Edited by Apocalypto, 19 November 2009 - 09:22 AM.

[Prototype]

I don't care much about lore in this situation. And I doubt that was the reason for people to want the change anyways.

The change is wanted because you want to play a Paladin with a different race then currently available. It's a simply addition to make. One thing to consider is if it will negatively affect current Paladins, if it doesn't then there's no real reason against it.

Edit: I say this because you can twist and turn lore mostly in what you need it to be. Even if you want to follow the general standards you can always have exceptions, or turns of events that made it this, or that way and thus possible.

[Sarah]

I voted half-elf only. I think dwarf hp on a paladin would be too rediculous, especially on 1a.

Edit: One could argue that according to this logic that dwarf clerics shouldn't be possible either, but strength is more obsolete for clerics, its more important for paladins.

Edited by Sarah, 19 November 2009 - 11:55 AM.

[Apocalypto]

One would have argued that if you didnt point it out lol. But i think the dex would equal out. I myself would still rather a halfling paladin even if dwarf were possible.

[Sarah]

I don't think the dex would equal out, Holy Speed/Divine Prayer give paladins a ton of dex no matter the race.. So I still think dwarf hp on a paladin would be overpowered.

[Apocalypto]

I know what your saying, but the dex on a paladin is fishy. But if i was any class besides a mage id much rather see 21 x 25 21 18 17 then 18 x 29 18 18 19

[Sarah]

So would I.. especially with uber hp. Thats what I'm saying...... high dex and dwarf hp? Too overpowered imo.

Edited by Sarah, 19 November 2009 - 05:26 PM.

[ice_cold]

One thing to note though is that during my time using level 30 paladins I noticed that higher dex including casting holy speed on yourself didn't seem to make much difference and as such dwarf paladins would be better than other races for paladins, however, haven't tested paladins past level 30 so don't know how this changes.

i have beat a lvl 31 cleric with a lvl 27 pally
i have beat lvl 31 and under thieves with a lvl 28 pally (w/ dotw and dos)
i have slaughtered all fighters
i have beat a lvl 31 ranger numerous times with a lvl 27 pally
just last week i beat a lvl 31 zerk 2-1 with a lvl 27 pally

I dont know what pally you were using (actually i do, and you had 1 more dex then sovereign and 2 less then bun) but i find holy speed to help a lot. especially against zerks and rangers.

i vote yes to half elves no to dwarves. there str and con are too much a boost for the 2 healing points they lose and the 1 dex.

With all dex mods stats would be...
human: 19 19 28 19 19 19
halfling: 18 19 30 18 18 19
Half-Elf: 18 20 28 19 19 20
Dwarf: 21 18 27 21 18 17

[Prophet]

One thing to note though is that during my time using level 30 paladins I noticed that higher dex including casting holy speed on yourself didn't seem to make much difference and as such dwarf paladins would be better than other races for paladins, however, haven't tested paladins past level 30 so don't know how this changes.

i have beat a lvl 31 cleric with a lvl 27 pally
i have beat lvl 31 and under thieves with a lvl 28 pally (w/ dotw and dos)
i have slaughtered all fighters
i have beat a lvl 31 ranger numerous times with a lvl 27 pally
just last week i beat a lvl 31 zerk 2-1 with a lvl 27 pally

I dont know what pally you were using (actually i do, and you had 1 more dex then sovereign and 2 less then bun) but i find holy speed to help a lot. especially against zerks and rangers.

i vote yes to half elves no to dwarves. there str and con are too much a boost for the 2 healing points they lose and the 1 dex.

With all dex mods stats would be...
human: 19 19 28 19 19 19
halfling: 18 19 30 18 18 19
Half-Elf: 18 20 28 19 19 20
Dwarf: 21 18 27 21 18 17

Lol I think your confusing me with the noob who stole my name on 1a.

My observations were pvm not pvp, as everyone knows paladins rape pvp.

[Guess]

I don't get how dwarf paladins will be overpowered.

Paladins hit rate is trash even with Holy Speed. (Dodge rate is another discussion) And when they do hit its weak as hell, even with champion's strength. Right now everyone prefers ling pally's due to the fact that there hit rate is so horrible they don't even want 19 dex. The only "gain" dwarf's will get is extra hp and only like 20ish more avg.

There strength won't be worth anything because if that was the case people would roll human pallys and stick GoV's on them, bam 21 str and still 1+ dex then a dwarf. (Would be a dwarf with sg's, same thing just more hp) So the only thing that dwarfs would have other then human pallys is -1wis and more hp. Hit rate would still blow and they wouldn't hit much harder.

[Peacemaker]

I own a human paladin and i have put GoM on it and a dex ammy and it did not effect pvp. Ice_Colds so called tests are when he is in diggys and cannot be put into the issue. If he went out of town and tested it then i believe he would find it to be different. I have had my human pally totally dexed out and str maxed as i could and neither gave me the power to beat a zerk, a druid, a mage, a cleric, or a thief. Ya you can be all like you dont know how to use them and all that, but tbh have you ever seen a pally win a pt or mosh? Besides on main? Almost all situations pvp with exception of a fighter and another paladin itself results in a loss to the other class. I dont think dwarf would be overpowering at all. In fact i dont think any of the other classes being paladins would be over powering. And a dwarf paladin does not hit much harder then a dwarf cleric if it even does, buff them both up and let them cast their spells how they want and i bet the cleric wins, and i bet the cleric gives a better fight then the paladin does based on rf, ar, and divine light and holy might and enhance.

[Autek]

Why don't some staff members take the initiative of testing paladins of these races and see if there is really that much of a difference. All of this is just heresay without any concrete testing.

My guess would be that they wouldn't be overpowered, and even if they were better than humans/lings it wouldn't be by much. Whats the trouble in bringing some attention to a virtually unused class (in parties (on main anyways))?

[Guess]

Paladins are very good pvp. There only weakness is casters. At lvl 30 1v1 a paladin could beat anything besides a mage/druid/cleric consistently. Some paladins could even hold there own against a mage (holding heals while the mage ran outta mana). But that's besides the point. I don't think a dwarf pally would be op, and we all know a helf wouldn't be.

[joanna]

elves should never be paladins, they would have as much if not more mp than elven clerics, the notion that paladins have as much mp as clerics is just daft in the first place.

the race that needs more classes is the half-orc race. they should be allowed some of the magic-using classes.