33 replies to this topic

[Stig]

When you go out training (note, not bossing), especially in a group, what is the primary prize you aim for? I'm possibly developing an area for 1-alt that has an ulterior purpose, but which can be used as a training area.

Now, I know everyone would ideally like high gold and high XP, but if you had to choose between the two, which would you go for?

[Cadabra]

XP would be my biggest want while training.

[Sarah]

I voted for high gold, but for me it really depends on where I am with my leveling gold. If I can afford to level, am not in debt, and don't have anything to buy, I'd train on high exp mobs.

[Silk]

***Sorry guys just read stigs post, missed it first time around. if i HAD to pick either exp or gold? id have to pick the same as i did but the rest of this post is kind of an offtopic ramble.

I voted higher exp undead (healable) mobs. Clerics are very much needed even with alot of the server having cobalts, the problem is the best training you can do with a cleric and a party is zeum, and zeum is highly overused. What i would like to see is an area thats designed toward clerics but allows everyone and maybe even has a boss(healable, beast hp, moderate armor and not too much offense) (not all bosses should be edge of your seat healing ppl while everyone is on the brink of death with 1 fizzle)
The problem with such areas that already exist, is that the mobs are so hyped up and gnarly that 1) you need a cleric or two and C) the cleric spends all thier time trying not to let people die and they miss out on the experience they could be getting on 2nd floor, healing noone who has a cobalt and maybe savnig 1 stam to move.

Also new areas involving traps should be highly avoided atleast until thieves or protect is fixed to allow proper exploring w/o a cleric involved.(clerics who die to traps have to regain xp, and clerics who are regaining exp, dont cleric boss trips)

Edited by Silk, 19 April 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[Tietsu]

New places all the time. More quests. Been screaming this for years.

[Woodstock]

anything where you dont think wisdom means how smart the monster is in RL. Please for god's sake take into account the fact that everytime you design something, you give nuts high wisdom so EVERY class but mage in the game can do 100+ damage to them.

36 dmg to Ku'Nal with 24 int (still pumped i got the KS with that lowly dmg)
40 dmg to Blu Dragon with 24 int
ALMOST broke 55 on Archmage
45 to Banshee with 24 int

Thats just off of bosses i can remember off the top of my head, but in almost all of these cases other than Blue Dragon, even the areas surrounding them are filled with high wisdom mobs (other than maneaters). Why not give them all high armor too so its even or just face that wisdom isnt a stat determining their lore, its there to determine how much damage mages should do?

almost no damage to anything on most trips i go, to the point everyone just complains im a mage, and more or less its not because of the mana as since i've acquired tons of superiors, i havent had a mana issue in bossing. Its simply that you coded high wisdom into mobs with the idea that they should be 'smart' instead of taking into account that you are making them completely worthless to fight on one class.

In conclusion, I would LOVE new content, but please, get off of the high horse you are on regarding mob wisdom (such as drow...) and fix the game according to balance instead of how accurate you think it is stat wise.

I would love ANY new content. Please just leave the Mage hate, and to a lesser extent the caster Druid(lol) hate out of it. - and i voted for high gold.

Edited by Woodstock, 19 April 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Woodstock]

main problem i see with anything cleric related is they cant make enough gold to lvl 1-40 w/o some other crit needed to help gold and farm keys. and other stupid things like wounded druid(a key) being stuck in a lvl 21 area. basically forcing you to have more alts. just move it 1s into grassy meadow lol

as it sits now i basically just cleric or pass off clericing to a higher lvl cleric and take a crap hitter. til my cleric is up to 6 stam ill continue this but i doubt ill be training anything else.

i doubt ill ever run out of any key needed by my cleric i spent basically 6 years of 1a preping for being a cleric. but some people dont want to play crit A then crit B to help crit C. also not many people like having 40 holders and 11 ch vaults either.

clerics need more gold obtaining ability during their exp but they also need more diversity and mobs to kill.
could also try, maybe a mob that can be healed has moderate gold and hps but is immune to physical attacks like heal/spell damage only kinda like demilich.

edit: id prefer to only log on the cleric and have maybe 1-2 alts to help do things. i also dont really care for second floor its just been the same crap since it was added lol i think its time for something better.

Think of everything you just typed, and exchange cleric for mage and you feel my pain too, slightly--- and Caster only area/bosses sounds awesome.

Edited by Woodstock, 19 April 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[Apocalypto]

I personally try to go for mobs with a balance of gold an xp.


edit: but i voted gold. Have to be able to afford to level and buy your items or there isnt any point in training in the first place.

Edited by Apocalypto, 19 April 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[Sausage]

Where's the 'High Gold for Clerics' option? Helloooo??

Edit: High gold will suffice. But I think particular attention should be given to good gold mobs that clerics can SOLO. Not every cleric wants to invite 5 people when they want to make gold, don't ya know?

Edited by Sausage, 19 April 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[IXThunderDomeXI]

I don't think adding another high gold area would be in the best interest of the 1a server, the economy is trashed, adding another easy way to make gold is just going to make it worse.

I don't see an issue with adding another high XP area, the ones in game aren't abused or anything and you could make it so where it helps some of the underused classes (Low magic resistance comes into mind).

To me Clerics are already too easy to train so of course I'm not going to be the most supportive person on adding high XP undead monsters.

On a side note: Just because it costs so much gold to level isn't a good reason to add high gold monsters, it is however a good reason to change the leveling system *Cough*Cough*

[Sandy]

MY Goal in NM? To be able to lvl. I don't have multiple crits. I use Tinderstep. I Gold on my cleric, train on my cleric and heal parties on my cleric. Getting gold in Nm is really hard enough. Thus the reason I haven't been on. Everyone wants and needs clerics on to go bossing, so its really hard to go golding by myself.

For instance...Say I want to go to zeum: Good Pod and Gold right? Well, I have to spend 20mins Killing mayor and then gather a party to kill mummy and then go to second. In which case I have to split the gold. OR I can make sure I kill mayor twice before going to zeum. Use one key to kill mummy and then ask people to drop lodes in zeum so I can put on some decent exp. Which isn't always the case.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to cleric....Running around NM randomly healing people and following them about giving them Enhances..But just like everyone else, I would like to lvl and have awesome equips. There is no possible way that I can train 1-40, afford my lvls and gear all while clericing bosses, dying to traps, pks etc.. its impossible.

[Silk]

clerics are lucky to net 100k per level. its really kind of rough on them.

[Woodstock]

when i used play mage i typically just round whatever or gold in hedges or solo half the bosses ingame. but that was awhile ago.

aside from maybe a heal self spell or a teleport to a mage alchemy square i think they are fine solo.

partywise an area that requires a mage to cast a 2min ethereal spell on party members so they can hit ethereal mobs would be cool.maybe bonus nonheal spell damage aswell.

1. This isn't a mage discussion - i just asked whatever is in design be viable for mage-ing.

2. You named 1 place a mage can actually get a mediocre pod and decent gold (which happens to be the ONLY one)

3. Please elaborate on what bosses are/were soloable by a mage and not every other class.

Edited by Woodstock, 20 April 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Apocalypto]

Dessy is nice xp/gold for a mage too. If you use the time to fortex to bt and refresh there and l2l at centipede. But still come out on top if you refresh for 300 lol.


And also, i agree with matt. Game is kind of flooded with gold. And the economy is getting more and more screwed up. And clerics can make just as much gold as any other class. Just a little more restricted. If you hit demonics or vampire bats and ran to town for refresh, you would make insane gold.

Edited by Apocalypto, 20 April 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[Trendkill]

How about helping clerics/pallys? Most of the tim pallys heal for xp. Whats that leave for clerics and pallys to heal train? Vampire bats? Demonic Soldiers? Yes theres other places but I think they need a new place with good xp/gold. Maybe more people would run pallys/clerics. Just my input. I know I'm going to get flamed for the pally side of it.

[Shera]

I picked High Exp. I dont look for any of them really, I tend to just train on w/e I feel like at the time based on the crit I'm going to use. I dont have any problem making gold, my now lvl 28 fighters made over 510k before even getting to lvl 28, and Shera well I can make stupid amounts of gold on her easily, and that's with soe. I tend to use my pally, fighter, and druids the most and all of them make gold fairly easily.

I'd like an area that had a variety: maybe 1 or 2 monsters in it that was healable for the clerics, and the pallys that heal train, some high exp but low gold mobs for exping, and some lower exp but high gold mobs. An area with something for everyone really. Maybe a more realistic area would be one with the healing mobs for clerics/pallys and some higher exp mobs with midrange gold for everyone else.

I dunno if that is going to fit what your area would be about Stig sorry, but you did such a great job on the Einon area making it fun, and interesting to play that I thought why not say exactly what I'd like in an area.

[Woodstock]

Piddy, that is stupid once you put it that way, really stupid. 'oh i can run there and hit it a few times and relog....' Thats not solo'ing, thats hitting and logging, any idiot can do that, and that doesnt mean the everything is hunky dory because with a mage or druid you can invis or camo to get there before SERIOUSLY? hitting and logging? so that makes them balanced with the other classes? Your logic is evading me, i'm considerably glad you aren't a dev-team member. I've made at least made 4+ trips with friends to help me dump pots/mana at some bosses (GSW, BL, HL to name a few) and solo'ed them that way and usually spent over 50k in pots/mana, but by justifying your previous posts by saying 'well i ran there and hit and logged' is a joke. It only took you what? 8 hours to kill them? You also stated how many mobs are roundable. THEY ARE FOR EVERY CLASS. The statement asked what was soloable on a mage and nothing else, as thats how you made it sound in the previous post. Also, yes, please list what mobs mages can round. but here, i'll help you shorten it. Name the mobs a mage can round that no one else can. I'll retort with all the mobs a mage hits for sub 40 damage while every other class can hit 100+ with their cobalt/blade of time/hell probably even halberds.

ON A SIDE NOTE SO WE STOP THE MAGE DISCUSSION HERE: I only mentioned making the mobs beamable for some decent damage if we make a new area. This was not to discuss viability everywhere else or how they can make money in the hedge maze or exp in the desert. As it currently stands, roughly 60% of the bosses currently in game have too high of wisdom for a mage to do even half the dmg of other classes per hit, and i'd estimated roughly 30% of peon mobs. The only things i can think of (off the top of my head) that melee cant hurt much are SK, some doors/rocks... dumb stuff.

Ryan, yes, you can do that in the desert at silversail, but refreshing every time you run low on mana costs 300g, after an hour of training you are usually only up like 4k gold on some of the best PoD in game as compared to making 10k per 5 min on bears or hedges. SS has been my log to local since long before 1a came out because you can get to everywhere with a single VG.

Please remember the topic. If there is to be a new area, what would one expect it to have? I simply suggest there be a more mage friendly area as compared to what is currently available. And as it would seem, a solid mage/cleric area would be be the most preferred. A pub only clerics/mages can access and enemies with a decent pod or gold that are strongly Beam-able/DR-able. I disagree on Pally or druid as they are the 2 classes that can already do just about anything alone.

Edited by Woodstock, 20 April 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[Trendkill]

Yea Piddy I could sit and attack mobs all day long with my pally to make gold but how consistant is the damage compared to healing monsters? How about a new area with a mix of good xp/gold for all magic users? Just saying...

[Gnarkill]

Cyber chicks.. I trained to get the desperate cyber chicks with webcams.

Edited by Gnarkill, 20 April 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[Woodstock]

Ok Piddy, your logic wins, thats why everyone plays and owns one.

I suggest you check out other games and follow the example. When something is overpowered, people tend to overplay it, abuse it, and do so because its the best. On nightmist, its fairly safe to say there is not a single over the top class, but there are some dragging behind. Some that since they wont change any code, are still fixable with new items or with new areas. I agree that there is a point where mages become easier to train than others, its usually once you have beam and 4 stam. Thats all i agree with from your above post.

btw 42 dmg per beam x4(full stam bar at 25) = 168.
fighter round with my 26 human fighter with 6 stam = 22 61 63 miss 71 57 = 273. throw another miss or armor block in and its still even, btw thats with mage not even fizzling.

[Woodstock]

You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 42 points of damage.
You tried to attack the Drow with your Cobalt Staff of the Winds but missed.
You tried to attack the Drow with your Cobalt Staff of the Winds but missed.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 32 points of damage.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 49 points of damage.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 56 points of damage.

You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 46 points of damage.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds, but the Drow's armor absorbed most of the blow for 14 points of damage.
You tried to attack the Drow with your Cobalt Staff of the Winds but missed.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 48 points of damage.

You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds, but the Drow's armor absorbed half the blow for 24 points of damage.
You tried to attack the Drow with your Cobalt Staff of the Winds but missed.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 47 points of damage.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 51 points of damage.

You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 50 points of damage.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 64 points of damage.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 61 points of damage.
You attacked a Drow with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds for 60 points of damage, killing it.

fighter is level 26, 19 18 19 19 19 12 human. No dex or str mods.

Also, did i mention you can enhance and RF that damage?

Again on topic since you ignore the topic, and the point being made: AREA DEVELOPMENT AND WHAT YOU'D LIKE TO SEE.

You say go hit bears for 100 since its about PoD. I say go hit a granite with a DPA or a Hydra with a torch then if thats whats at arguement. I've made my point, it seems you havent made yours. This isnt about whats easier, or does more damage, i just asked that the new area not have high wisdom, and if it does, give it high armor too. Why should mages be the most area restricted and party restricted class? Whats wrong with arguing/making them viable for this?

Also, i find it much easier to pk with shades on single clickers than i do on mages, its much easier to alternate 2 buttons instead of tap one 6 times, the other once, then the first one 6 more times. Besides, if you're shading already, the point is something is going to die, how does this make mages OP?

Finally, I wasnt arguing the fact that mages are harder or easier to train. Everything is easy to train. I was arguing for mobs that mages can hit for a reasonable amount of damage in a new area that he is considering making, and as said in my first post, i voted for higher gold, not PoD or dmg. --- And if were going to make spells blockable by armor, the squishiest class would also deal the worst damage, with no self sustaining weapon options or spell options.. Yep, Logic at its finest.

Edited by Woodstock, 20 April 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[WALD0]

I like the high gold option...However if its just another zuem or rose garden....where there is not a pub or well anywhere close by....thereby excluding mages from yet another thing.....Id pull my hair out. Peace Love Harmony Mages


And WTF.... Piddy jumped the mage hate train..../cry

[Silk]

Yes that seems pretty good. and grats on your fighter getting such nice rounds. and yes you can hance and rf. However that calcs to Calculator: 644/18 = 35.7777777777778 dmg per stam. and that isnt anymore effective than your same level mage.

Also hitting granites with dpa. its sucks on fighters damage variance is too spread out.pallies suck too, but druids do well. and to that i say go beam orc cheiftain.

just because melee classes have mobs they damage well doesnt mean you dont. they just happen to be different mobs.

on another note. lets go out to tree frogs we will each pop off 20 stam and i guarantee i miss or get absorbed 50% of the time
while your damage would stay largely unchanged.

And if the area has high wisdom does not mean it should get high armor. wisdom affects you the same exact way with every click of a button. and that is not so on other classes vs armor. yeah i can hit top damage of 110 with hance and rf or i can hit an 11 or i can miss completely. you still hit a steady 55 dmg with far less null or worthless stams.

That being said yes make it viable for mages to train decently in this new area. wether the area be close to a town, or have some way mages can sustain their mana.
most areas in game have been here for years. and changing them now is kind of pointless, jhowever maybe new areas should allow everyone to train there equally (like Ziggurat)(or unequally like The Bad Lands)

[WALD0]

MY Goal in NM? To be able to lvl. I don't have multiple crits. I use Tinderstep. I Gold on my cleric, train on my cleric and heal parties on my cleric. Getting gold in Nm is really hard enough. Thus the reason I haven't been on. Everyone wants and needs clerics on to go bossing, so its really hard to go golding by myself.

For instance...Say I want to go to zeum: Good Pod and Gold right? Well, I have to spend 20mins Killing mayor and then gather a party to kill mummy and then go to second. In which case I have to split the gold. OR I can make sure I kill mayor twice before going to zeum. Use one key to kill mummy and then ask people to drop lodes in zeum so I can put on some decent exp. Which isn't always the case.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to cleric....Running around NM randomly healing people and following them about giving them Enhances..But just like everyone else, I would like to lvl and have awesome equips. There is no possible way that I can train 1-40, afford my lvls and gear all while clericing bosses, dying to traps, pks etc.. its impossible.

Can I Like this? wheres the like button....

[Silk]

at first i was testing this to prove a point but then i was trying to see how long it would take the expert mage to fizzle. These are the results

32 fighter only wis mods

You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 59 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 70 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 50 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 29 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 54 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 92 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 77 points of damage, destroying it.


^^ probably best round ive ever hit, spelled or not.


You tried to attack the Granite Beast with your Dwarven Pickaxe but missed.
You tried to attack the Granite Beast with your Dwarven Pickaxe but missed.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 36 points of damage.
You tried to attack the Granite Beast with your Dwarven Pickaxe but missed.


You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 57 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 21 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 24 points of damage.
You attacked a Granite Beast with a Dwarven Pickaxe for 45 points of damage.

26 Human* Mage no mods

You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 73 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 72 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 69 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 74 points of damage.

You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 72 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 75 points of damage, Destroying it.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 73 points of damage.

You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 73 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 70 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 69 points of damage.

You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 70 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 71 points of damage, Destroying it.
You went Up.

^^ 32 fighter has spent 15 stam 26 mage only 12. both crits killed 2 granite beasts

vv this is where i was testing this mythical fizzling that plagues mages to the point they cant train

You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 72 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 72 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 70 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 72 points of damage.

You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 72 points of damage, Destroying it.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 71 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 70 points of damage.

You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 73 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 72 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 73 points of damage.

You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 71 points of damage.
You summon a beam of pure light, blinding a Granite Beast for 73 points of damage, Destroying it.


The only thing that might make the 32 fighter better than the 26 mage vs mobs is the fighter 1) doesnt need mana 2) has the option of cobalt. BTW that many stam in and still had half a mana bar left. theres some solid testing for ya

Edited by Silk, 20 April 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Silk]

ahh thanks piddy i was mistaken on its race. humans is OP

Polgara is a Female Human Expert Mage. She looks strong, wise, fast, and sexy. In one hand she holds a Spirit Orb, the other a Fire Bands. She is wearing a Shroud of Awe, and a Silver Diadem protects her head. She is wearing a Guild of Crafters Membership Ring, a Crystal Ring, a Crystal Ring, and Witches Gloves on her hands. She is a member (forever young) of ÕÇÇîÐü$ ÐÌVÌ§Ä and she is in a healthy condition.

[IXThunderDomeXI]

If mages are so bad... Why do you use them?

[Woodstock]

I'm glad you took the point i made and retorted

Also, i never said anything about fizzling being an issue. I mentioned DPA on granites or torch on hydra's because he told me i should go hit bears. None of this was the topic of discussion, or even related to the point i made. I, very simply put, requested that the new development not have as high a resistance to magic as the other 'new' areas, and if it does, make sure it has high armor or dexterity as well.

These bees you also speak of, i havent been able to locate a reasonably close to town spot to train on them and be able to conveniently refresh my mana, as far as i knew, they were in the mines east of harabec, and i did try to train on those, and the exp was comparable to hedges and the gold sucked.

The fighter was just an example, as we know, fighters are still rather weak as its just basic attacking. Compare those beam numbers to a zerk smiting with equal stam, or a ranger rounding with Rapid Fire. They dont hit random 20's like fighters. Fighters in their own have issues that require dealing with- in which they make up for in constant-heavy armor and vamp weapons.

You stated beaming mage for 9k exp? prove it, and show me you solo it, because its ktp, and you run out of mana or hp, but he doesnt die before that happens.

And i didnt say mages are bad, they have a niche, atm its only a PvP niche, but PvP is all but dead... maybe i should change that.

[Silk]

I'm glad you took the point i made and retorted

Also, i never said anything about fizzling being an issue. I mentioned DPA on granites or torch on hydra's because he told me i should go hit bears. None of this was the topic of discussion, or even related to the point i made. I, very simply put, requested that the new development not have as high a resistance to magic as the other 'new' areas, and if it does, make sure it has high armor or dexterity as well.

To Quote you on the first page of this topic: btw 42 dmg per beam x4(full stam bar at 25) = 168.
fighter round with my 26 human fighter with 6 stam = 22 61 63 miss 71 57 = 273. throw another miss or armor block in and its still even, btw thats with mage not even fizzling.



These bees you also speak of, i havent been able to locate a reasonably close to town spot to train on them and be able to conveniently refresh my mana, as far as i knew, they were in the mines east of harabec, and i did try to train on those, and the exp was comparable to hedges and the gold sucked.

It's nightmist good pod means weak gold good gold means weak pod it will always be this way for balancing

The fighter was just an example, as we know, fighters are still rather weak as its just basic attacking. Compare those beam numbers to a zerk smiting with equal stam, or a ranger rounding with Rapid Fire. They dont hit random 20's like fighters. Fighters in their own have issues that require dealing with- in which they make up for in constant-heavy armor and vamp weapons.

i dont know of any zerk with 4 stam out damaging your mage if its burning off 72 avg damage per stam without fail. (mind you on a mob thats not designed for your class)

You stated beaming mage for 9k exp? prove it, and show me you solo it, because its ktp, and you run out of mana or hp, but he doesnt die before that happens.

And i didnt say mages are bad, they have a niche, atm its only a PvP niche, but PvP is all but dead... maybe i should change that.

This last one is my overall favorite statement. I'd love for you to do so
Sincerely,
Gen_Tavare Archmaster Class III Elf Fighter

[Woodstock]

silly elf, i didnt rack up 1200pks in 6 months cuz im bad.

wisdom and magic absorb are no match for a shade or 2.

Edited by Woodstock, 21 April 2012 - 02:01 AM.