37 replies to this topic

[Freek]

Not Supported.

Part of the appeal at least for me in training a paladin is that I can chose to either be a mana ##### and h2k things OR beat the crap outta stuff. I dont know how much easier it would make a paladin to train with du, considering that a paladin can already go to undead mobs with a cleric and get CE'd and beat the crap outta the mobs or heal them. If my paladin goes to say rax with even our lvl 27 cleric and gets CE, hance, and with Champs cast I can do more damage then a cleric does to the mobs healing them.
The only benefit I would see for having this spell would be to make it so that paladins would then do more damage with the spell then they could by hitting the monsters, thus making them even more powerful then clerics against the undead. Which would make them even easier to train then a cleric...but only if they use healing spells. Seems like it would make them even more unbalanced that way, and make them less of a holy warrior. Ugh and then paladins and clerics would compete for places to train.

Piddy's input;
Shera with CE and hance (from an arch cleric) with champs cast can do 151 damage per stam to undead with soe(that would be near 300 damage with a sword of light)..I think that's enough damage.

Imo heal training is just something that you do to get to lvl 25. A level 23 paladin with justice blade can hit over 100 damage spelled the same way.. Find a friend who likes to cleric (you all have one).

If a paladin was to heal for 100 then he would ignore clerics and heal with a paladin that gets stam faster without having to holy might, and would break it because a 29 dex paladin is untouchable by mobs.

I really tried to follow this argument but I failed.

I don't get why you even brought a cleric into the mix. We are not trying to balance around what it does with cleric spells. We are trying to balance paladins as they are by themselves.

Now if you gain more exp per hit on a paladin attacking than you would healing undead for 110 damage. Then why are you against it? It would obviously still not compete with /a ing so whats the use of it? Also, DU is only castable on Undead.. It's not a healing spell don't get confused..

Basically, DU gives paladins a consistent reliable way of training without buffing there damage/healing/supporting potential, while also making it mana dependant and therefore a trade off between which style to use to train.

[Cruxis]

lol @ you all have one. Not everyone is lucky enough to train with "other people" every single time they log on.

I also don't see how this would change your appeal of paladins, you'll still be a mana ##### with DU, or you can attack. Problem?

151 damage to undead, that indeed is quite enough damage. Too bad that said 150 damage from one stam will end up being half the total damage of your round, you may get lucky and post a beautiful round of 500+ from a pally, but you know the average damage (thus exp output) from paladins is crap. Usually making under 15k exp a round, even in high levels. At 4stam regain, most crits start averaging 20-30k solo depending on what they train on.

The max hit from a 30 paladin, ling, solo, with 29 bd, and champs, is about 85. Their minimum is also under 30 damage, without armor blocks blows. Maximum damage raises alot faster than minimum with spells, paladins will still do crap average even if you can top at 150 damage.

A paladin can hit over 100 with a justice blade eh.. almost all classes can hit near 100 with full spells from a cleric, at a much earlier level too. Zerks can hit over 120 once they get Blade of Honor, point? Also, I don't see why all your testing is with full spells. If you wanna test stuff and only consider fully spelled, you need to go to main, not the server where soloing should be expected without boxes, but I guess "you all do."

Edit: "Basically, DU gives paladins a consistent reliable way of training without buffing there damage/healing/supporting potential", this times 1000. Whole reason this was suggested was because paladins do not need a boost in damage delt, they don't need to heal more, but they're still unpopular, why? They train slow as hell, because they are not extreme in their damage output, because they can both heal and attack for moderate ammounts. Make exp easier without changing that balance? Very possible, how? DU.

Edited by Cruxis, 05 February 2012 - 06:37 PM.

[Shera]

I'll simplify my argument: if another class exists ig that can do the same thing to a paladin, give it a bonus when fighting (either heal wise or damage wise) undead how is it going to make paladins more "popular" if you give them their own spell? You already call paladins a "support" class, imo this would make them even less likely to be used in parties which is part of what you had talked about in your post.
I only brought up clerics because you brought up that it would make paladins more useful from a party standpoint, how many parties dont have clerics in them? If DU was stackable with CE, wouldnt that be a tad op? Imo it's not balancing a class by making them op. That would just lead to the normal people that whine about other class then they like to play being op, who wants to see more of that?

It is a healing spell, it's a heal to death spell. I'm pretty sure that's how it would be coded into the game for them, healing the monster to death.....So it's not changing anything, the people that like to heal would still heal, the people that like to attack would still attack, which basically changes nothing at all. It wouldnt make them easier to train in the long run in part because like I said they would then compete for training places with the clerics.

It wouldnt change the appeal of paladins for me at all, that's the problem. I love paladins, so thus I am one of the few people that actually plays one consistantly, I thought the idea was to make more people want to play a paladin and to balance them out more....

You obviously have not used a corrosion blade on either bats or hornets or you would know that they can get FAR more then 15k exp a round. Yes it is a specialized blade only useful on certain mobs. Yes their exp output can be crap depending on what mobs you hit, they are basically the turtles of nm, slow but steady exp.

Making them easier to train does NOT balance out the class at all. A higher lvl paladin can go pretty much anywhere that they want to if they chose to attack and stay there for hours with 12 lodes and a water and a food, training solo. Paladins are awesome at training solo, which is one of the things I personally like most about them, since I tend to play nm rather like a kid with add, my attention wanders and I end up doing something else while I'm still logged on nm. Paladins can also train for hours solo. All other classes will need to go back to town before the paladin will. Druids yes can nourish themselves but they cant heal themselves for crap so the paladin can still train longer then the druid. Before you ask, yes I have tested this, on both servers.

I didnt test the paladin with full cleric spells, I only talked about the spells that you can already use with a cleric against undead to prove a point that you can already do more damage with the spells that i talked about them you would get with DU. If I had wanted to talk about full cleric spells being used on a paladin I would have talked about CE, hance, champs, vs CE, hance and having to use holy speed while in a party because champs and div p both pretty much get negated by RF.

So again I dont see how DU would make them any easier to train overall. It would not make them more useful in a party, and I doubt it would make more people want to play them. Paladins had a FAR more powerful and useful offensive spell before reset then DU, Holy Bolt (ty andy for remembering the name!). Why give paladins a spell from another class and have it used the exact same way, why not think of either a spell or a different attack that would make people more interested in paladins and move them from a support class to more of a main class?

Bringing back a version of Holy Bolt would probably make people more interested in Paladins then just giving them a spell that an existing class already has. We could also talk about making champs or div p stackable with RF, making a paladin do more damage when in a party, which hopefully would stop them from being a support class. Negating any class to a support class is part of the problem imo of people not wanting to play them.

Edited by Shera, 05 February 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[Autek]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I will say that DU wouldn't be a good idea. Any increase they need should be melee rather than spells in my opinion.

Deep down paladins are my favorite class, they are just too bland for me to play. I leveled Thor 30-34 there fairly quickly before I sold him in hopes that he'd get better eventually but it never did come. I think that the Warrior Tunic WAS a good addition for them, and it was part of the reason I played the paladin though I never did get it. Because of concerns over Fighters, the Paladin class got the shaft. The Sword of Light will likely never come into play, for the same reason Antlers haven't and likely won't.

Specialized weapons and armor which will gear them towards melee or healing (strength/dex mods or damage multipliers, or wis mods) I think would just continue to benefit them. I doubt that their internal formulas for hit rate / absorbs rate / damage etc. will be tweaked these days, though if possible that would be what needs some tweaking.

[Silk]

Yes! give Pallys a spell vs mobs and players, and then make them wear armor more like mages and less like fighters, lets push pallies further and further fomr a melee class and more toward a hybrid spell user like that of druids.

[Sausage]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I will say that DU wouldn't be a good idea. Any increase they need should be melee rather than spells in my opinion.

Sentiment shared.

[AzlaTheSpiderQueen]

This MAY BE a really stupid question, but its better to ask a lot of questions than never know at all and make a dumb mistake, so... can a Vampire be a Paladin?

[Vega]

Err no? O.o