45 replies to this topic

[Isolated]

Folks lets not forget that our votes, as much as u don't want to believe it.....don't mean everything we want them to mean. Remember that if they did, Al Gore would've been president . In the end....they just want us to think/feel that we have some say in the matter.

i think we all saw that episode of family guy, and what would have happened if gore was president
country would be better ;D

[Redheart]

CHANGE HAS COME TO AMERICA


YES WE CAN !

[Desendent]

Folks lets not forget that our votes, as much as u don't want to believe it.....don't mean everything we want them to mean. Remember that if they did, Al Gore would've been president . In the end....they just want us to think/feel that we have some say in the matter.

i think we all saw that episode of family guy, and what would have happened if gore was president
country would be better ;D

if by better you mean living like we're in the 19th century then sure.

[JadedSoul]

1.)Okay your wrong where the bush family gets there income. They get a lot of it from companies they have stake in that have to do with the war.
2.)Gas is down because because the market itself is down. The crash, inturn caused people to stop speculating on oil.
3.)The economy can be blamed on clinton for nafta and other bills passed. I lived in michigan in a town ehre when i moved here there where maybe... 30 factories now there is only 5 because they all got shipped over seas. Americans can't make money, they can't spend money, they economy dives. Also if they can't make money... they need some where to live. The goverment let anyone and everyone get a house loan and now there are tons of houses out on the market that are forclosed repoed ect. that the bank can't move because of the rest of the economy.
4.)Yes exon moblive for atleast the past two years has had the highest grossing company in teh world.
5.)American did moose itself. The people did. The goverment did. Everyone did.

1) Sadly on top of all the money the Bush family has made off military supply companies they own there hands are dirty in oil too. http://www.bushwatch.com/bushmoney.htm
2)Prior to the hurricane gas prices started to climb as oil rigs shut down in preperation from the storms. Mass evacualtions from Texas depleted stocks in Texas restricting much of the US supply. After the storm it took many days to get the refineraries back up and even longer to repair damage down to a main supply line going from the Gulf Coast to Georgia. That pipeline is why Georgia prices spiked much earlier then the rest of the country. Prices started to drop slowly shortly after the fed announced that the Lousiana oil reserves had been filled back up. The reserves were tapped into only for the 2nd time since the 1990 Gulf War. 1st time was during the hurricane Katrina events. Now for the kicker. Gas prices are down now largely due to US consumption dropping 17%. Amazing how much fuel we learn to save when we think we are running out. Humans are so predictable.
3) You are correct that NAFTA was created under the Clinton administration. But fall to see that when he left office we had agreements with 4 countries under that agreement. 8 years later we have trade agreements with 72 countries. So yes Clinton gave the Bush the gas and matches, but he lite the fire.


Obama is the man. Not even President yet and he is doing more to solve the economic crisis then the Bush clan. The Clinton's are back in the White House. Make sure you clean the lint out of your pockets. Your going to need the extra room for the money your going to have. Now all we need to do is NOT bail out the auto industry. Let them fail like Delta. File bankruptcy and come back with a vengence as Delta has done. Big bussiness has made huge mistakes that have lead us to this cross roads. Now they have to live within their means and restructure. I went out to eat last week and put off my light bill. This week I have to work 3 hours over and do without for smoke this week to catch up. I`ll bail myself out and the big 3 should too.

Peace biznitches

[Desendent]

1.)Okay your wrong where the bush family gets there income. They get a lot of it from companies they have stake in that have to do with the war.
2.)Gas is down because because the market itself is down. The crash, inturn caused people to stop speculating on oil.
3.)The economy can be blamed on clinton for nafta and other bills passed. I lived in michigan in a town ehre when i moved here there where maybe... 30 factories now there is only 5 because they all got shipped over seas. Americans can't make money, they can't spend money, they economy dives. Also if they can't make money... they need some where to live. The goverment let anyone and everyone get a house loan and now there are tons of houses out on the market that are forclosed repoed ect. that the bank can't move because of the rest of the economy.
4.)Yes exon moblive for atleast the past two years has had the highest grossing company in teh world.
5.)American did moose itself. The people did. The goverment did. Everyone did.

1) Sadly on top of all the money the Bush family has made off military supply companies they own there hands are dirty in oil too. http://www.bushwatch.com/bushmoney.htm
2)Prior to the hurricane gas prices started to climb as oil rigs shut down in preperation from the storms. Mass evacualtions from Texas depleted stocks in Texas restricting much of the US supply. After the storm it took many days to get the refineraries back up and even longer to repair damage down to a main supply line going from the Gulf Coast to Georgia. That pipeline is why Georgia prices spiked much earlier then the rest of the country. Prices started to drop slowly shortly after the fed announced that the Lousiana oil reserves had been filled back up. The reserves were tapped into only for the 2nd time since the 1990 Gulf War. 1st time was during the hurricane Katrina events. Now for the kicker. Gas prices are down now largely due to US consumption dropping 17%. Amazing how much fuel we learn to save when we think we are running out. Humans are so predictable.
3) You are correct that NAFTA was created under the Clinton administration. But fall to see that when he left office we had agreements with 4 countries under that agreement. 8 years later we have trade agreements with 72 countries. So yes Clinton gave the Bush the gas and matches, but he lite the fire.


Obama is the man. Not even President yet and he is doing more to solve the economic crisis then the Bush clan. The Clinton's are back in the White House. Make sure you clean the lint out of your pockets. Your going to need the extra room for the money your going to have. Now all we need to do is NOT bail out the auto industry. Let them fail like Delta. File bankruptcy and come back with a vengence as Delta has done. Big bussiness has made huge mistakes that have lead us to this cross roads. Now they have to live within their means and restructure. I went out to eat last week and put off my light bill. This week I have to work 3 hours over and do without for smoke this week to catch up. I`ll bail myself out and the big 3 should too.

Peace biznitches

Ok well to comment on your view on the auto industry i'd like to let you know that it is the DEMOCRATS who want to bail out everything they can and the last time i checked Obama and the Clintons are both democrats. So how is it we will have more money in our pockets with them in the White House exactly when historically democrats have always raised taxes. The only way you will have more money from the new White House is if you are lazy and get government help b/c they are wanting to take all the money from the people who have worked for it and give it to those who dont do anything or dont care enough to better their own situation. One word describes this view - Socialism.

Edited by Desendent, 18 November 2008 - 12:55 AM.

[JadedSoul]

Historiacally Democrats don`t increase taxes. Just as Obama will not increase taxes for 1 single person in the US. What he has proposed was cutting taxes for those making under 250K a year. Now why will people making over 250K see a raise in taxes? Not because Obama has sat down and written out this long set of rules to tax them at higher rates. All he is doing is letting the Bush tax cut policies expire. Taxes were decreased as a part of the campaign promise by Bush in 2004.

One thing to note is that the rate at which people making over 250K will be taxed is the same rate at which they were taxed during the Clinton days. And at no time in the history of the US have we seen growth like we did when Clinton was President. Unemployement was at a all time low.

My Grandfather retired from Chevy in Cleveland, Ohio back in 1984. My Father retired from Ford in 2002. My father was payed $22.18 an hour to watch engines come down a line and inspect them for 5 diffrent colored paint dots. The 5 operations before him when complete would each put a paint dot on the side of an engine block. If a dot was missing my Dad put all his skills on the line and reached up and hit a button sending the incomplete engine into a pit for someone else to fix. They payed him $22.18 an hour to push a button on average 9 times a week. The auto industry needs fixing. They need to cut costs even if it means jobs. No one wants to see anyone lose a job, but that is the realilty of bussiness. It`s up to employees to put themselves in a position so when job cuts come they aren`t the one. Sadly we have gotten used to just pushing a button. . .

[Desendent]

if you think that democrats have not raised taxes historically then you are naive. Not only income tax but capital gains tax under clinton was 28% when now it is 15% and Obama has said he WILL raise it up to 28% but no higher b/c thats what Clinton had it at. I'm not arguing that the auto companies need to deal with their own issues. Thats what i think should happen but you are supporting the democrats when they are the ones who drafted up this bill for the 25 billion to go to GM NOT the republicans who have opposed it. If you're going to contradict yourself at least admit to it b/c i didnt see you defend yourself for supporting the party that wants to bail out the big 3. And people wonder why the American education system looks bad, it's b/c of people that dont understand plain facts and contradict themselves.

[Desendent]

To add to what I said, quoting your story about your grandfathers job:

My Grandfather retired from Chevy in Cleveland, Ohio back in 1984. My Father retired from Ford in 2002. My father was payed $22.18 an hour to watch engines come down a line and inspect them for 5 diffrent colored paint dots. The 5 operations before him when complete would each put a paint dot on the side of an engine block. If a dot was missing my Dad put all his skills on the line and reached up and hit a button sending the incomplete engine into a pit for someone else to fix. They payed him $22.18 an hour to push a button on average 9 times a week. The auto industry needs fixing. They need to cut costs even if it means jobs. No one wants to see anyone lose a job, but that is the realilty of bussiness. It`s up to employees to put themselves in a position so when job cuts come they aren`t the one. Sadly we have gotten used to just pushing a button. . .

The people responsible for raising wages and giving an absurd amount of money to people that are not doing much on an assembly are the Unions. If there were free market on wages in this industry this would not have happened. Who supports unions? and who supports free market? This answer should be obvious.

I can't figure out how much more proof people need to understand that they are being manipulated by the liberal media (which includes more than you could imagine) to believe that whatever the democrats do is what they want when in fact a lot of people agree with more on the other side but just dont realize it b/c they've been told that republicans are bad and only help the rich. This is ridiculous, I wish people would open their eyes.

[joanna]

I still say the most worrying thing about Obama is how he says he will just 'close' Guantanamo Bay. What will happen to the people there. And not the guards who will be laid off and put on welfare. I mean the inmates. Hopefully this is where the inmates will be sent:

/--------
|/.....|..
|......o...
|...../|\.
|...../.\.
|..........
|\_____

(excuse the really bad ascii art )

Edited by joanna, 18 November 2008 - 09:56 PM.

[Desendent]

agreed, why keep terrorists alive?

[JadedSoul]

if you think that democrats have not raised taxes historically then you are naive. Not only income tax but capital gains tax under clinton was 28% when now it is 15% and Obama has said he WILL raise it up to 28% but no higher b/c thats what Clinton had it at. I'm not arguing that the auto companies need to deal with their own issues. Thats what i think should happen but you are supporting the democrats when they are the ones who drafted up this bill for the 25 billion to go to GM NOT the republicans who have opposed it. If you're going to contradict yourself at least admit to it b/c i didnt see you defend yourself for supporting the party that wants to bail out the big 3. And people wonder why the American education system looks bad, it's b/c of people that dont understand plain facts and contradict themselves.

In the United States, individuals and corporations pay income tax on the net total of all their capital gains just as they do on other sorts of income, but the tax rate for individuals is lower on "long-term capital gains," which are gains on assets that had been held for over one year before being sold. The tax rate on long-term gains was reduced in 2003 to 15%, or to 5% for individuals in the lowest two income tax brackets. Short-term capital gains are taxed at a higher rate: the ordinary income tax rate. The reduced 15% tax rate on eligible dividends and capital gains, previously scheduled to expire in 2008, has been extended through 2010 as a result of the Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act signed into law by President Bush on May 17, 2006 (P.L. 109-222). In 2011 these reduced tax rates will "sunset," or revert to the rates in effect before 2003, which were generally 20%.

Back to the point I made earlier. Obama will not raise taxes he will allow the current tax laws to expire.

Now I spent a little time this evening watching the auto industry pitch why THEY needed 25 billion dollars. At no time during the hearing did I see any republican or democrat say they had drawn up the plan or even supported it. Sen Robert Casey, D-PA was the only one who expressed any interest in giving the money. Even more importantly both Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow (both from Michigan) are against the bailout. I strongly feel that they need to fail. They need to file bankruptcy and start all over. But I also know that to let them fail would mean millions of jobs losts. So if asked to vote on this issue I would vote no for the bailout. I am all for taking the 25 billion and extending unemployement benifits for those who have lost jobs.

To the point of me contradicting myself. Yes I am a Democrat. No I do not believe in all they do. I do not believe it to be a contradiction to not agree with all issues my party is in favor of. I think it creates an environment in which real issues can be solved. If everyone agrees then what is the point in voting. . .

Edited by JadedSoul, 19 November 2008 - 04:19 AM.

[JadedSoul]

I still say the most worrying thing about Obama is how he says he will just 'close' Guantanamo Bay. What will happen to the people there. And not the guards who will be laid off and put on welfare. I mean the inmates. Hopefully this is where the inmates will be sent:

/--------
|/.....|..
|......o...
|...../|\.
|...../.\.
|..........
|\_____

(excuse the really bad ascii art )

Guantanamo Bay needs to be closed. The US should not be responsible for detaining terrorists. Because of NATO many times we are unable to put those being held through the legal court systems. Yes Obama is going to close it. And at the same time he is putting pressure on NATO to form a organization that will address international criminals. More then half of those detained in Guantanamo Bay have not commited crimes against the US. But yet we house them on a US Naval base in Cuba. Cuba of all places. Like they want us there? Why should the US police the world to capture criminals only to not be able to try them in US courts for crimes commited abroad.
Guantanamo Bay was a place that all countries from around the world could drop off thier bad guys for the US to babysit. Sadly 2 years ago we got caught being the babies ass. Now the world views us as unethical and cruel because of beating the asses of a few thugs. Close it down. Send a message to the world that if you step on US soil no longer will we put you up at the Guantanamo Hilton only to be told we can not convict you by NATO. We will catch you, drag your ass back to the US, drop you off in the North Georgia Mountains and while the banjo plays a sweet tune you will be greeted by some good ole boys. If you take the life of another you have no rights as a human.

And I don`t think the military is going to be cutting any jobs because Guantanamo Bay gets closed. I suggest we bring them home and post them up at the Mexican border. We already have Rob and Rafa. Please no more. Plug the hole that lets them flow into the country.

Edited by JadedSoul, 19 November 2008 - 04:41 AM.

[Desendent]

CNBC reported a few days ago that the democratic congressmen had been working hard on a plan to give the auto industry 25 billion dollars. Just b/c they didnt mention it at the hearings doesnt mean they havent. Barney Frank, the committee chairman of todays hearing is a major supporter of this idea. If you listened to the republican on the far right in yesterdays hearing he gave them some of the most crap about what they wanted and he asked point blank if the UAW union was the problem which they declined to respond to. Again I heard the report myself on CNBC that the democrats had been working on getting a 25 billion dollar bill together about 2 days ago. It looks as though I will never convince you or most anybody that has been brainwashed by the media to even open your minds to anything and this is exactly why our country will be at great risk under Obama. All I can say is I didn't vote for him.

And to clarify I'm not saying McCain is my choice either. My favorite candidate from the primaries was Guilliani.

[JadedSoul]

CNBC reported a few days ago that the democratic congressmen had been working hard on a plan to give the auto industry 25 billion dollars. Just b/c they didnt mention it at the hearings doesnt mean they havent. Barney Frank, the committee chairman of todays hearing is a major supporter of this idea. If you listened to the republican on the far right in yesterdays hearing he gave them some of the most crap about what they wanted and he asked point blank if the UAW union was the problem which they declined to respond to. Again I heard the report myself on CNBC that the democrats had been working on getting a 25 billion dollar bill together about 2 days ago. It looks as though I will never convince you or most anybody that has been brainwashed by the media to even open your minds to anything and this is exactly why our country will be at great risk under Obama. All I can say is I didn't vote for him.

And to clarify I'm not saying McCain is my choice either. My favorite candidate from the primaries was Guilliani.

Again watched the hearings today. Still no mention of either party having a plan to give 25 billion. Only 3 CEO's begging trying to explain why they need it. I wish you would quit using words like brainwashed. I`m not here to argue a point. Only to express my views based on the info I have. I watch CNN at 6PM and Fox news at 7PM. I think one is far to the left and the other far to the right. My idea was to get both views before passing judgement or making a decision. Prior to this election cycle I could have cared less. So it is fair to say I don`t know much about politics. But when I do find conflicting info I do a little research trying to find the truth in the story.

I also try to present facts and not options. So if you have any facts to support what you say post them. Again this isn`t a pissing contest. Just through out this conversation I have found myself googling things that 2 years ago I culd have cared less. I`d like to be informed. But sadly most people are like me. We jump to conclusions based on limited info and stick to them because to change our minds it seems makes us look like John Mcain...lol

But on the real. I think the auto industry again should fail. If the Dems have a plan written that will give them 25 billion I would be disappointed. They say the 750 billion dollar bailout is working. I think we need to sit back, take our lumps and let it work. Will it be easy. No. But it will allow for al the real problems that face this country econimically to come to light. We won`t be covering up mistakes with huge amounts of money. If we think money is the answer then I support another 750 billion given to the 130 million US tax payers. Now that will stimulate the economy.

[JadedSoul]

Neo I stand corrected. The liberal media today announced
http://www.cnn.com/2...lout/index.html

I`m not at all for this. But that is what makes this world turn. Two sides disagreeing.

[Desendent]

I'm not trying to tell you that you're stupid or anything and I know that there are things that I dont know. I just wish people would learn about things before they just decide hey i want this person b/c they are advertising on tv. It's not that I agree with everything the Republicans do either but I agree with the overall views that they have. Reagan was a Republican President that won i think 48 of the states in his election and cut taxes a lot and in doing so increased the governments revenue by quite a bit. That is also my view that if you cut taxes people will have more money and then therefore be able to buy more things and pay their home payments and save more for retirement etc. And I respect you for stating that you saw something about a bill written by the dems. When I heard the report it was just talking about Barney Frank and Chris Dodd and other Democrats working on a bill not that it was done at the time. I do enjoy the debate though .

edit: I dont know if you ever watch it but you should check out the Hannity and Colmes show on Fox News. It keeps things relatively even having Hannity (Rep) and Colmes (Dem) both interviewing people and discussing their views. I do admit that Hannity takes over sometimes but it is a very interesting show.

Edited by Desendent, 22 November 2008 - 12:01 AM.