17 replies to this topic

[Apocalypto]

Just curious on your thoughts, because i find it disturbing people are so against this around here, when the dont know nuts about it.

[Pureza]

I don't support it for a few reasons. Mainly, people shouldn't be fined for not being able to afford insurance. Like that's gonna make it any easier for people living below the poverty line to get insurance. Secondly, if they wanna make universal healthcare work, they need to take a page from the U.K. or Canada. Both countries have socialized healthcare, and from what i've heard from residents of both countries, it works. When you can barely make your rent and bills from month to month, how in the moose are you gonna be able to pay another bill?

[Cruxis]

Government healthcare plans? lolll

Well, just look at public schools. Now you'd be able to just walk anywhere and get free healthcare? Wonder how well those facilities will be run, and how competent the staff are. Employee's are only as good as you're willing to pay them, and the government won't pay doctor's as well as they are now, since..you're not paying them for their services. Of course privately owned hospitals will still exists, but when people have a choice to depend on the government, most will take it. The hospitals will generate less money since people will use the free healthcare more, and either they will make it up by making their healthcare more expensive, or putting less money (and quality) into it. Slowly and surely, the health industry will start to fail. Then we will be almost completely dependent on the government for healthcare, just like we are for early education.

Edit: It shouldn't be disturbing so many people are against it, it's a bad thing to let government take control, unless they actually want to sacrifice their freedom.

Edited by Cruxis, 28 September 2009 - 10:52 PM.

[Apocalypto]

Sorry alex, wrong. Almost every doctor you talk to supports the plan. Why? Because nearly 30-40% of their time is tied up in filling out paperwork for current insurance programs. Its unfortunate the rightwingers have gotten into your head, you seem like a smart young man. Besides that, the insurance companies that you seem to be worried about fail to insure the people that pay for the service in more than one way. By either, changing the coverage they have(obviously not for the better), and more often than that, removing medications that were previously on the insurance plan. Leaving you wondering, what do i do now that i cant take this medication for the money i spend? Shall i change the medications i take, or drop my insurance and try to get coverage with an existing illness? Hmm... Besides, this isnt free healthcare. Its government issued health care.

/t pureza , look at their tax rates compared to ours. We pay among the lowest tax rates of nearly all countries. Canada and the united kingdom pay more corporate and personal taxes than america. Why? Most likely to pay for that health care you seem so fond of. Unfortunately, money seems to be the basis of all the arguments that we here about, besides the one's where the right wing tries to instill fear into americans to cloud their judgment.

Edited by Apocalypto, 29 September 2009 - 12:04 AM.

[Crane]

British taxes are extortionate, and it does go towards our National Health Service; unfortunately, it has been plagued by scandals and ridiculously bureaucracy as of late, and the managers are trying to meet targets and cut costs more than treat patients. Waiting lists run into over a year sometimes as well. It was better run in the past, although it was very regimented and almost military-like, which you may or may not like (the comedy "Carry on Nurse" is actually very accurate in its portrayal of the hospital and its staff), but due to recent events a lot of people are going private.

[IXThunderDomeXI]

I dont like goverment healthcare plan makes every hospital a free clenic makes the taxes go up and makes it so where the goverment tells us what we can and cannot get

[Cruxis]

British taxes are extortionate, and it does go towards our National Health Service; unfortunately, it has been plagued by scandals and ridiculously bureaucracy as of late, and the managers are trying to meet targets and cut costs more than treat patients. Waiting lists run into over a year sometimes as well. It was better run in the past, although it was very regimented and almost military-like, which you may or may not like (the comedy "Carry on Nurse" is actually very accurate in its portrayal of the hospital and its staff), but due to recent events a lot of people are going private.

Thank you Gareth for proving my point. In the end, it'll be alot cheaper (instead of paying for insurance, your just paying in taxes) and alot crappier health care. In the end it'll end up like public schools and you'll have to deal with crappy health care if your not able to afford regular insurance, which will be more expensive. If even raising rates and feeding off rich people who want better health care can't keep the business afloat, then all you'll have is your crappy health care, and then, government can control your health, not something I'm a fan of. I'm republican though, I like little government control. People shouldn't have to support one another either.

[Apocalypto]

British taxes are extortionate, and it does go towards our National Health Service; unfortunately, it has been plagued by scandals and ridiculously bureaucracy as of late, and the managers are trying to meet targets and cut costs more than treat patients. Waiting lists run into over a year sometimes as well. It was better run in the past, although it was very regimented and almost military-like, which you may or may not like (the comedy "Carry on Nurse" is actually very accurate in its portrayal of the hospital and its staff), but due to recent events a lot of people are going private.

Thank you Gareth for proving my point. In the end, it'll be alot cheaper (instead of paying for insurance, your just paying in taxes) and alot crappier health care. In the end it'll end up like public schools and you'll have to deal with crappy health care if your not able to afford regular insurance, which will be more expensive. If even raising rates and feeding off rich people who want better health care can't keep the business afloat, then all you'll have is your crappy health care, and then, government can control your health, not something I'm a fan of. I'm republican though, I like little government control. People shouldn't have to support one another either.

If you have private insurance you dont have to use the government plan. It will compete with the private insurance companies. And alot crappier healthcare? Give me a break. If that is the case, why are private health insurers worried about the proposal? Current companies that provide health care insurance hike premiums, change coverage and limit the medications you can receive(and change what medications are covered as well).


Im glad 70% of the country is misled by news coverage. Otherwise implementing this plan would be alot easier. Maybe if i get cancer one day i can just die due to the fact that any private insurance company with reasonable rates has the option to change coverage when i actually do come down with a illness.

edit: Your argument about private health care providers having to feed of the rich to keep afloat is asinine. As if they already dont. How many people that are "poor" do you know with health insurance. How many people do you know that have gotten sick and been under minded by the company? That is what they are scared of, people having options, not the fact that only the rich will be able to afford their coverage.

edit2: i also disagree with having a set denomination based on the fact that the issues will not always stack up correctly no matter which party is in the whitehouse. I actually think that is the problem with the country. People get their minds set on the parties, instead of actually knowing the issues. ( i will however admit i tend to agree with democrats more often than republicans)

Edited by Apocalypto, 29 September 2009 - 05:02 AM.

[DragonHeart]

I find it rather funny,everyone was like "Obama is gonna come in to office and make everything better" HA pure BS,now don't get me wrong,i didn't like bush either,but as far as i see it,its ALOT worse now then it was with bush,which was still bad.

Seeing as how my stepdad just lost his job,my family and i have been struggling as it is,having to pay yet ANOTHER bill,i just don't know.

[Apocalypto]

I find it rather funny,everyone was like "Obama is gonna come in to office and make everything better" HA pure BS,now don't get me wrong,i didn't like bush either,but as far as i see it,its ALOT worse now then it was with bush,which was still bad.

Seeing as how my stepdad just lost his job,my family and i have been struggling as it is,having to pay yet ANOTHER bill,i just don't know.

I understand where your coming from. My dad is having trouble keeping a job as well(been unemployed for over a month now after being laid off :/). I just today finally got a job. And while i agree another bill doesnt seem like much help, i also know for a fact if a major health problem arose we might as well just throw in the towel. Or beg for help :/.

Edited by Apocalypto, 29 September 2009 - 05:39 AM.

[Cruxis]

Private insurance companies are worried cause they may go out of business, obviously. Why? Cause they know more people are lazy and would rather live on the government than furthering their education and making more money to meet the demands of the economy.

My family started off poor, living off welfare and food stamps. My family clawed and made it's way up out of alot of crap. If it's possible for us, it's possible anyone. My dad now makes about 50k a year, and although it's not an extremely great job, we have everything we need, including health insurance. Rely on yourself, not the government. Don't be weak.

And about not being able to get your medication, you think the government will pay for even half of the medications insurance companies would? If there's something about the government, they like to get by doing the bare minimum. Again, look at the public schools. Hell, just look at most standards. What would it take to be qualified as a certain doctor? Alot less than it did before, because they will pay them less, they will have to lower the standards, because alot of people will not be going into the profession as before. That's why it'll become crappier. I actually wanted to be a teacher, I felt I could greatly teach young minds and steer them in the right direction, what keeps me from being a teacher though? Getting paid 10$ an hour is the only thing. Being a doctor will turn into the same thing. And getting qualified will be cakewalk for any dumbass, then you have crappy doctors. Enjoy.

It'll mostly hurt people making from 40-70k a year, who can afford health insurance now, but won't be able too later. Have you ever been to a free clinic? They are almost always run like crap and have incompetent staff. And yes, to me, making only like 80-100k a year is pretty rich.

I'm not saying the healthcare in itself is a bad idea, maybe we should have the option of free healthcare. But it'll screw with the rest of the economy at this point, and government intervention in the economy is what makes it fail. Economy is supposed to be run by the market, supply and demand, not free government handouts to keep businesses afloat. Capitalism will not work without total freedom in it.

In my opinion, the only thing we need government for is protection from the rest of the world (military), and protection from ourselves (police). Protection from ourselves has got lost somewhere in old days, and now means that we need protection from being stupid, failing, and dying. So hey, not disabled? That's cool, they'll still pay welfare for people lazy ass.

Edit: And yes, if you have insurance (which will be more expensive), you won't have to use the government plan, but you'll still have to pay for it in taxes, even without using it. That alone will cause some people to use it just to not pay for 2 insurances. In the end, government controls your health, which, I don't think is good. No one should have control on whether you live or die but yourself, and yes, the government may seem like they care, they don't. They'll think nothing twice of letting some people die if people need health care asap and they can't provide it immediately.

Edited by Cruxis, 29 September 2009 - 03:36 PM.

[Apocalypto]

Private insurance companies are worried cause they may go out of business, obviously. Why? Cause they know more people are lazy and would rather live on the government than furthering their education and making more money to meet the demands of the economy.

My family started off poor, living off welfare and food stamps. My family clawed and made it's way up out of alot of crap. If it's possible for us, it's possible anyone. My dad now makes about 50k a year, and although it's not an extremely great job, we have everything we need, including health insurance. Rely on yourself, not the government. Don't be weak.

And about not being able to get your medication, you think the government will pay for even half of the medications insurance companies would? If there's something about the government, they like to get by doing the bare minimum. Again, look at the public schools. Hell, just look at most standards.

It'll mostly hurt people making from 40-70k a year, who can afford health insurance now, but won't be able too later. Have you ever been to a free clinic? They are almost always run like crap and have incompetent staff. And yes, to me, making only like 80-100k a year is pretty rich.

I'm not saying the healthcare in itself is a bad idea, maybe we should have the option of free healthcare. But it'll screw with the rest of the economy at this point, and government intervention in the economy is what makes it fail. Economy is supposed to be run by the market, supply and demand, not free government handouts to keep businesses afloat. Capitalism will not work without total freedom in it.

In my opinion, the only thing we need government for is protection from the rest of the world (military), and protection from ourselves (police). Protection from ourselves has got lost somewhere in old days, and now means that we need protection from being stupid, failing, and dying. So hey, not disabled? That's cool, they'll still pay welfare for people lazy ass.

Edit: And yes, if you have insurance (which will be more expensive), you won't have to use the government plan, but you'll still have to pay for it in taxes, even without using it. That alone will cause some people to use it just to not pay for 2 insurances. In the end, government controls your health, which, I don't think is good. No one should have control on whether you live or die but yourself, and yes, the government may seem like they care, they don't. They'll think nothing twice of letting some people die if people need health care asap and they can't provide it immediately.

What a hypocrite. I stopped reading after you said, we use to be on welfare, and then "dont live off the government". My parents might dont make 70k a year together. So moose you. Not everything falls into your lap son. And my mom is the type that had 4 jobs when my parents were separated when i was a kid. I dont believe in the welfare system due to the fact that your right about one thing. Most people are lazy and will live off the government.

Edit: My mom took a job at a taylor mart and became manager. After quiting there she got a job at the school cafeteria. Then all at the same time, worked an 8 hour shift at the school cafeteria, cleaned and mowed the post office building, cleaned a cattle company building, and had TWO news paper routes. Now she is an insurance agent with allstate insurance with a two year degree and still struggles. So dont give me that crap.

My dad had problems and my mom stepped up. She could have been on foodstamps or welfare my entire life really. But she stepped up.

Edited by Apocalypto, 29 September 2009 - 03:45 PM.

[Cruxis]

My mom was disabled and was supporting us as such, while my dad was away at college 300 miles away.

Welfare is for people who need it, and anyone who needs it for more than 2 years is just lazy. Living off the government and using them to better yourself are two very different things. Who all uses welfare with plans to go to school with it? Not many, but there are still some self respecting people in this world who would.

You may see it as hypocritical though, I wouldn't blame you. For some people there is no difference between using and living off the government.

Edit: I definitely worded that wrong, my dad was supporting himself and his college while my mom supporting us with welfare she got, since my dad didn't have to help support us much, he was able to pay for college. Even so, he still had to send my mom some money.

Edited by Cruxis, 29 September 2009 - 03:54 PM.

[Apocalypto]

Well i can see that, my dad has problems that im unwilling to discuss on nightmist, and he is doing somewhat well for himself, but it seems to me life keeps throwing him to many curveballs. I just get fired up on that issue because my mothers determination. Im proud of her for it, and its dissapointing to me, as well as her to see these people popping out kids just to get welfare/food stamps while she struggled nearly my whole childhood and still managed to keep me more than happy in terms of being up to speed with the other kids in some aspects(such as a pair of basketball shoes, ect.).

[Vodka]

Just sad how the middle class always gets screwed. Like, if I can't afford to pay for say a cat scan out of pocket money.. how am I going to be able to afford the $3000 or whatever to cover it. Seriously. I was going to a clinic for my medical needs, even then... I still struggled to pay the fee, still needing to pay on it, actually. I quit going because I couldn't afford it. Luckily, when I had to undergo the big machines (ultrasounds, cat scan, mri, etc) we had a government paid thing here called HCAP that would cover ALL of the expenses if unemployed or had very low income. Or, I'd be nearly drowning in medical debt..

Does anyone know when this goes into effect? If it's effective right now? Because I heard it was and wanted to be sure. I have (psychological) medicine I need to start taking again, but don't want to out of fear I'll have to visit the Dr. again just to be fined in the end.

Edited by Vodka, 15 April 2010 - 05:06 AM.

[Apocalypto]

the bill that past really has little to do with a national healthcare plan... it is a step in that direction, but a universal healthcare plan likely wont happen under barack obama (especially if he doesnt get re-elected)

The bill that past ends rescission (the practice of insurance companies dropping theyre customers once they get sick)…

The bill ends exclusion for pre-existing conditions for children immediately and does the same for adults in 2014...

This bill requires the insurance companies to show where theyre money goes and how it is spent..

This bill lets kid stay on theyre parents insurance until they are 27...

This bill gives small businesses (under 15 employees) a tax credit covering 50% of theyre employees insurance…

[Tietsu]

Not Supported.

I don't know the doctors you have spoken to who 'liked' this idea. The ones I have talked to do not support this in any way whatsoever.

Children are taken care of by Medicaid. My family was out of work for almost a year at one point in our downslope. I did not once recieve Welfare. We were able to make it without. We did however recieve food stamps and medicaid for our family. Granted, some people are not so lucky, such as disabled families.

I would however support a more well thought out plan, but this one seemed to be slapped together. You have to go to the very basics; incentives, breaks, grants for students to become doctors. We've made it this far without a government healthcare plan, I think we could have waited longer for a better one.

[Defeat]

Burn the bill.
Free healthcare? How? The people that work will be the ones who pay for it. Sure, it's the people that make alot of money, but the last I heard, they're still considering taxing working people 40-60% of their wages. This healthcare is gonna be a BIG fall to the US. Fining people for not having health insurance is just outrageous, I can predict alot of people having ongoing tickets for this one. This bill in general is retarded. Throw it in the trash can n burn it. I have more opinions, but I don't want to waste anymore time posting about it. This bill looks like it's just a way for the government to get more money.

Edited by Defeat, 18 May 2010 - 04:59 PM.