21 replies to this topic

[Crane]

It always occurred to me... why cannot Dwarves be Paladins? In other role-plays, the Dwarves that become Paladins are often extremely loyal because they were willing to discard their entire heritage for the cloth, whereas Elves, for example, tend to have trouble letting go of their roots.

Is the reason why they cannot become Paladins due to their stats being too overpowering, even though Paladins need all the Dexterity they can get?

[Crane]

Hmmm... time I did some homework, methinks. *goes fishing for his PDF of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons book, despite it being only the 2nd Edition*

[Trevayne]

I don't think that there is any good role-playing reason for this.

In terms of game balance, the only argument that I can see is that having a class that has (1) healing ability, (2) moderately good attacks without mana use, (3) high armor and base damage, and (4) *very high HP* would be unbalanced. I don't think that this really makes up for their current in-game faults, but in principle, the high constitution of dwarves would likely rule this out.

[Dekade]

I don't think it would unbalance it at all really.

I mean you can make a ling paladin that can get up to 29 dex with holy speed. And do the same amount of self healing, and hit more (which paladins already have a problem with).

I think a dwarf paladins hp/damage wouldn't even been worth the loss of the dex. Paladins already have a horrid hit rate and with 18 base dex I don't see why not.

[Achilles]

not to mention that it might put a spark of interest in this little used class ...

[Cadabra]

Paladins do uber low damage anyways. Why not give them something good about them?

[Autek]

I'd try one out.

[Raylen]

Paladins essentially suck, right? So it would hardly unbalance things if a few more 18 dex pallies were added to the game. Let's face it, they'd never hit ANYTHING.

[Crane]

I often feel that with such suggestions, the only way to truly see if they are unbalancing or not, or if they even work, is to actually make prototypes or test them in-game, and keep them if they work or remove them if they don't. Of course, that can be a slightly dangerous strategy, not to mention if it doesn't work and, say, all the Dwarf Paladins are removed from the game, the players who rolled and trained them will not be happy, even if they've only been available for a week.

Found a few things in the AD&D Handbook on Dwarves:

Glory Seeker

The Glory Seeker hopes to become famous by performing heroic deeds. He dreams of becoming one of the heroes of legend whose deeds are still sung though the hero died a thousand years ago.

Best Suited For: Axe for Hire, Battlerager, Highborn, or any priest or warrior/priest kit. Lawful and good alignments are best for a Glory Seeker, but chaotics may also fill this role.

Combat Situations: He fights for glory, reveiling in the action, and dreams of his portrayal by storytellers to generations yet unborn. His love for action causes him to take risks, but he will try to avoid endangering his companions. He will place himself in grave danger to protect others or to rescue them, or even just to see if he can survive it, if that action alone would be heroic.

Role-Playing Situations: He enjoys being the centre of attention, but is not necessarily a skilled speaker. He may recognise his weaknesses and allow others to lead in negotiations. He wishes only to be acknowledged for the hero he is. When dealing with dwarves, particularly if he is the only dwarf in the party, he will take command of the situation, or at least make it clear that he is the leader of the party, even if he is not. He wishes others to see him as an epic figure.



If I was a bishop, I might be a little concerned by his lust for glory and action and the desire to be recognised in a bit of a selfish way (even I attempt to get recognised by posting on the "Boss Thread" and "Best Pally Ingame" topics), but I wouldn't think they were fatal personality flaws in a Paladin, especially if the Dwarf is Lawful Good, which most Paladins are (although some are Neutral Good); and after all, they are warriors.

A Dwarven Paladin, if rolled perfectly, would have the same MP as a Halfling and slightly less than that of a human. Their HP and attack strength would be higher than both other races, but their hit rate would be lower and their heal would be slightly weaker. They get a damage bonus while fighting underground, while humans get an experience bonus and Halflings get +7 armour. The higher HP and strength might be slightly unbalancing in that case even with the other penalties and bonuses taken into account, but not so unbalancing that it is a definite no-no, at least in my eyes.

ADDENDUM: It was the 2nd edition of the AD&D handbook that I possessed and quoted from, not the 3rd as I erroneously stated before.

Edited by Crane, 19 February 2009 - 11:42 PM.

[Dekade]

Yes please try it! No diversity in paladins sucks too by the way.

[Autek]

So is there any chance of this happening?

[Crane]

This isn't really an argument for allowing Dwarven Paladins, but it's something I noticed...

Most classes have 4 out of 7 races that can follow their path, while Clerics, Fighters and Pacifists have 6 out of 7. Paladins, on the other hand, only have 2 out of 7: Humans and Halflings. While allowing Dwarves to be Paladins will only raise it to 3 races, it is closer to par with the other classes and keeps a kind of 'exclusive' feel about the Paladin class in general.

[ice_cold]

ive always like the idea of pallys being able to be dwarves. i think though, that half-elves would make a lot more sense for this class, though elves are slightly out of the realm, i think a half elf may fit.

i would like to point oit, again though, pallys dont suck. people dont use them because they dont heal for as much as clerics, and they cant kill someone in a single turn or for that matter a couple. paladins can beat any class but a druid. people, please, lvl a paladin and keep in mind other aspects of the game besides how fast you can pk before saying they suck.

[Crane]

Well, to bump an old topic...

I have a feeling that Half-Elves still have some connection to their Elven roots that they struggle to let go of, so they may struggle to accept the ways of the cloth. I will have to look up some more information on Half-Elves before I can air my support, although it would give 4 out of 7 races the ability to be a Paladin, to match other classes that have 4 races available to them (which is most of them).

Paladins are relatively low-damage in comparison to the likes of Fighters and Berserkers, and a Dwarven Paladin would still be fairly low-damage, albeit it would be an improvement if you can handle the reduced hit rate. *decks out a new Dwarven Paladin with all the Dexterity modifiers he can find!*

Still, it is up to the staff and, ultimately, JLH to decide if they want Nightmist to have Dwarven Paladins.

Edited by Crane, 23 June 2009 - 06:56 AM.

[Masta]

I don't like the fact when I choose a paladin I am ultimately forced to pick what Race I am to be

As I always prefer halflings to humans that limits the choice even more... which for me is silly. I always understood the elves to be people of the forest which is a fair ommitence of the paladin class but other races perhaps should have better arguments as crane stated above. To be honest the one which did exist briefly and I support is Gnome Paladins. Even If they weren't to be used much.

[Crane]

Might I be allowed to suggest a petition for Dwarven Paladins to be given a limited testing time... say, until the end of the year (or three months if it takes until January to make a decision)? Where they can be rolled and tested by the playerbase and the staff on the two servers, and a verdict reached when the time period is up on whether to keep them or ditch them.

If decided to keep, nothing changes - players who trained them get to keep what they have. If decided to ditch, the Dwarf Paladins are reset to level 1 Dwarf Fighters, since they may be good rolls with some gold on them, and it wouldn't be fair to destroy that.

[DragonHeart]

I agree,we need at least one more race allowed to be a paladin. As a main paladin user for a couple of years,I would love to train a different race as a paladin.

Edited by DragonHeart, 07 October 2009 - 03:40 AM.

[IXThunderDomeXI]

supported dwarfs should be able 2 be pallies

[Scream]

support trial for it

[ice_cold]

it doesnt make sense to me there are only 2 classes that can be paladins. i would still like to suggest half-elf though. theyre an under used race which would only have the benefit of being able to had more mp then a human, hit softer the a human, but have less dex then a halfling and heal for more then a halfling. seems that they are balanced. where as a dwarf all dexed up and spelled has 2 more con and 2 more str then a human but would only have 1 less dex

Edited by ice_cold, 02 November 2009 - 08:45 AM.

[Crane]

A Half-Elf would have the same HP and MP as a Human, but would hit for slightly less (same as a Halfling) and heal for very slightly more due to the +1 Charisma, if perfectly rolled. A Dwarf would have an advantage with Strength and Constitution, but hit and heal rate is lower than Human and slightly lower than a Halfling. I'm open to the idea, but I am not sure how popular they would actually be, as +1 Chr for -1 Str doesn't seem the fairest of trades to me.

[Deadly Assassin]

I support this idea fully i think we should give it a try.

Edited by Deadly Assassin, 09 November 2009 - 11:28 PM.