57 replies to this topic

[Tietsu]

I like sleep.

Supported

I like that you supported this.

This person for staff.

Supported.

[Freek]

To many issues with trying to host a player run event.

For starters

Players have little to no control how another play can and will act during the event.
*How is a player supposed to stop a griefer?

There are limitations on what kind of event could be ran. (Mostly due to player bias, how can you expect people to think an event is ran fairly by a rival player when players accuse staff of cheating all the time?)
*Can't run trivia's because a player could tip off another player before he actually asked the question.
*Can't run specialty Events (Hide and Seek, Russian roulette, etc)
*Can't run races due to pre locals
*Can't run trips because of griefers

There are limitations on what kind of prizes.
*Gold (one player would be designated to hold)
*Items (Probably wont see anyone donating a high end item)


You see all the problems with "player ran" events? It's unrealistic and will cause more harm then good. You can't expect players to abide by other players rules. Especially for a messily prize, that probably wouldn't be worth the time of running anyways.

Heres a contrast.

Staff Event
*Fair
*Well organized
*Easily policed
*More diversity
*Can actually create and use good prizes

Player Event
*To much room to not be fair
*Horribly organized
*Not easily policed
*No diversity
*Prizes donated by a player meaning little to no value



Defending events by saying players could run it is ridiculous. If a player should take it upon them selves to run events then let a player take it upon them self to make an area?? Oh wait thats a staff members job right?

I have nothing against player run events but to get on here and post that its the players fault for no events and to try to hide behind "players can do it too" is ridiculous.

[IXThunderDomeXI]

Fat Danny use to run events as a player, he did a pretty good job

[Gaddy]

I'm in favor of doing things that seem good for the game.
However, I'm not in favor of adherance to player demands. It always leads to unbalance, claims of bias, or legitimate bias.


Additionally, to really attempt to benefit the game and make suggestions, I don't think the right route is under-handed insults or taunts. To say the thread is pointless is to say that staff are unwilling to improve and better the game. You know that is false, or they would quit being staff---like I did.
Additionally, please don't pretend like typing out ideas, even well conceptualized ideas, is any where near the effort, time, patience, and give-a-damn that it takes to actually develop, create, run, balance, and overall simply implement ideas. And the better the concept, the more effort to install.

Good ideas are a dime a dozen---assuming you treat change like garbage and throw away anything less than quarters.

[Freek]

I'm in favor of doing things that seem good for the game.
However, I'm not in favor of adherance to player demands. It always leads to unbalance, claims of bias, or legitimate bias.


Additionally, to really attempt to benefit the game and make suggestions, I don't think the right route is under-handed insults or taunts. To say the thread is pointless is to say that staff are unwilling to improve and better the game. You know that is false, or they would quit being staff---like I did.
Additionally, please don't pretend like typing out ideas, even well conceptualized ideas, is any where near the effort, time, patience, and give-a-damn that it takes to actually develop, create, run, balance, and overall simply implement ideas. And the better the concept, the more effort to install.

Good ideas are a dime a dozen---assuming you treat change like garbage and throw away anything less than quarters.

I expected no less from a Gaddy post. Thank you.


This thread I assumed would be pointless because it should be. Why should this thread lead anywhere when there are a dozen of threads much more thought out and constructive than this one?

If you'd like me to point out that there are a million well thought out suggestions and ideas that get little to no attention, I can go bump hundreds of them. So to say that we haven't tried is naive. Countless players have posted well thought out ideas many times over and guess what happend? Why waste anymore time drawing out well typed ideas when I can keep it sweet and to the point? Tell me why please.

I know implementing areas and changes is harder than drawing them up. But there is NO communication between the staff and players. And we are going to assume nothing is changing because staff don't communicate with the player base. When was the last time you saw a staff member say "Hey guys, we are aware of the difficulty to reach level 36+ with the dwindling playerbase and are thinking and testing ways to accomplish this"? Exactly, players can't assuming anything is changing or trying to change cause how often does it actually happen?

Basically, if there are changes being made let the players know your trying and if not.. Why not? And before you say "Staff don't have to explain themselves". I'm not asking them to, im asking them to keep players in the loop and let them know they are trying.

As for giving in to player demands. You mean listening to what the players think would help the game and have PROVEN that it works? All the evidence is there. When players had a reason to level or could actually obtain. There were more players.. When there were events ran on a daily basis.. There were more players..

I could go bring up all the graphs and cross reference them, but we all know you would say "its cause its warm outside".



So Gaddy if you would like to contribute instead of posting to "bash bashers". Please do so. Don't come on here and do exactly what your complaining about players doing.



I post threads like these to try to get staff's attention and hopefully some sort of response from them. Staying quite or getting on them to crack jokes is a good sign that change is coming..

[Abstract]

Players have little to no control how another play can and will act during the event.
*How is a player supposed to stop a griefer?

If they grief, remove them from the event (Tell them they are ineligable for any prizes). You can use clans to restrict player entrance. (Example 15 players want to join the event. You invite all 15 into your clan for the event. If anyone acts up, boot them from the clan.)

*Can't run trivia's because a player could tip off another player before he actually asked the question.

You have to trust the player running the event wont tip off others. Just the same as you would have to trust staff.

*Can't run specialty Events (Hide and Seek, Russian roulette, etc)

You can use pickplayers in arenas for russian roulette. Hide and Seek isnt possible, but drunken masters etc etc all is.

*Can't run races due to pre locals

Force everyone to local in sleeping fox inn, then have them all die once at shady diggys so you can see they are localled in the same spot.


*Can't run trips because of griefers

If someone griefs and becomes annoying for the majority of players, kill them.

As far as lack of staff communication, in my role as Advisor i have communicated alot with the playerbase. I have given you options, idea's and suggestions to improve the game by putting in a little effort and work yourselves.

- Jase

[Freek]

Players have little to no control how another play can and will act during the event.
*How is a player supposed to stop a griefer?

If they grief, remove them from the event (Tell them they are ineligable for any prizes). You can use clans to restrict player entrance. (Example 15 players want to join the event. You invite all 15 into your clan for the event. If anyone acts up, boot them from the clan.)

Not talking about griefers in the event I'm talking about players who are not taking part in the event and instead ruining it.

*Can't run trivia's because a player could tip off another player before he actually asked the question.

You have to trust the player running the event wont tip off others. Just the same as you would have to trust staff.

So your saying that my faith in a player is equal to my faith in a staff member? I would hope that I could easily put my faith in someone who was assigned to do there best to help the game.

*Can't run specialty Events (Hide and Seek, Russian roulette, etc)

You can use pickplayers in arenas for russian roulette. Hide and Seek isnt possible, but drunken masters etc etc all is.

The arenas are not a safe place to run events do to the fact that anyone can walk into them. Player: "I lost, guess i'll just sit here and grief" etc.

*Can't run races due to pre locals

Force everyone to local in sleeping fox inn, then have them all die once at shady diggys so you can see they are localled in the same spot.

This one might actually make sense.


*Can't run trips because of griefers

If someone griefs and becomes annoying for the majority of players, kill them.

Thats going to boil over well. We all know the rivalry of 1a and I don't see this happening.

As far as lack of staff communication, in my role as Advisor i have communicated alot with the playerbase. I have given you options, idea's and suggestions to improve the game by putting in a little effort and work yourselves.

- Jase

You also still failed to answer what would be the gain from player ran events.

A couple thousand gold easily made during the time the event was ran?
A low end item?

What is the reason to compete in something like this?

At least in staff ran events you get things that are beneficial and don't have to worry about so many things going wrong and all the organization time.


Basically, the whole point behind players should take it upon themselves to run events is wrong. There is nothing wrong with players having fun and trying to spice things up by making some player ran events. But there should be daily/weekly/monthly events ran by staff to make things interesting for players.

If you honestly think it should be the sole purpose of the players to run events then tell me, why it makes more sense and why it would be better for the game to have the players run events vs staff run events.




Also Gaz did run a couple events today and guess what, the turn out was pretty good and everyone had a great time. I want to thank Gaz for that



01-17-2012 22:58:08, Derlok: Page me now to join the Russian Roulette. Its 5k entrance fee, this will be taken off you upon death. There is no exp loss. All deaths will be randomed before. I will be announcing all deaths so feel free to do /toggle announce. Thanks

01-17-2012 23:17:34, Derlok: And the winner is..... Leroy_Jenkins!

Note that these events weren't planned and still turned out a good crowd. Also the event only took 20 minutes to run. How hard would it be to spend 20 minutes a day on an event?

[Fieldmedic]

Ahh, the old whining of nightmist, I miss ye.

Edited by Fieldmedic, 18 January 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Stig]

If you've already done nopk party, you can't simply kill any griefers that you have with you unless you go back to town. The best you can do is remove them from the party.

[Abstract]

You seem to ignore the majority of my post, then randomly post large red crap everywhere.

Im going to highlight something now and i want you to actually read it.

Jase - "Hey you could use your clan house to hold events so you can fully control people allowed in and out"

Freek - "Not talking about griefers in the event I'm talking about players who are not taking part in the event and instead ruining it."

If they were outside of the clan house, and you were holding the event inside the clan house, how could they ruin it?

Jase - "You have to trust the player running the event wont tip off others. Just the same as you would have to trust staff."

Freek - "So your saying that my faith in a player is equal to my faith in a staff member? I would hope that I could easily put my faith in someone who was assigned to do there best to help the game."

Not once did i mention Faith, and that the faith must be equal between a player and staff. I said if a player was to run an event and you wanted to enter, you would have to trust them. If you couldnt trust them, you wouldnt enter.

Jase - "You can use pickplayers inside arenas. You can also use them in the mosh arenas.

Freek - "The arenas are not a safe place to run events do to the fact that anyone can walk into them. Player: "I lost, guess i'll just sit here and grief" etc."

Another example of you completely ignoring what was actually said. Good job. CLAN HOUSES

And last but not least, you go out with your clan and get an item, and use that for a prize in an event you run. Its just like any other boss run, but instead of randoming the item, you make an event for it.

But i basically wont be posting on any more topics like this made by Freek. You complain staff dont comunicate but thats not the issue. The issue is you dont listen when they do.

- Jase

[Freek]

You seem to ignore the majority of my post, then randomly post large red crap everywhere.

Im going to highlight something now and i want you to actually read it.

Jase - "Hey you could use your clan house to hold events so you can fully control people allowed in and out"

Freek - "Not talking about griefers in the event I'm talking about players who are not taking part in the event and instead ruining it."

If they were outside of the clan house, and you were holding the event inside the clan house, how could they ruin it?

Jase - "You have to trust the player running the event wont tip off others. Just the same as you would have to trust staff."

Freek - "So your saying that my faith in a player is equal to my faith in a staff member? I would hope that I could easily put my faith in someone who was assigned to do there best to help the game."

Not once did i mention Faith, and that the faith must be equal between a player and staff. I said if a player was to run an event and you wanted to enter, you would have to trust them. If you couldnt trust them, you wouldnt enter.

Jase - "You can use pickplayers inside arenas. You can also use them in the mosh arenas.

Freek - "The arenas are not a safe place to run events do to the fact that anyone can walk into them. Player: "I lost, guess i'll just sit here and grief" etc."

Another example of you completely ignoring what was actually said. Good job. CLAN HOUSES

And last but not least, you go out with your clan and get an item, and use that for a prize in an event you run. Its just like any other boss run, but instead of randoming the item, you make an event for it.

But i basically wont be posting on any more topics like this made by Freek. You complain staff dont comunicate but thats not the issue. The issue is you dont listen when they do.

- Jase

You act like someone is going to buy a clan house with an arena in it just to host events. Or that people are going to allow someone else in the clan for a period of time while a clan member could not be participating and have no interest in people being in the clan during this time.

I pointed out the trust issue because I can trust a staff member to run things fairly and hold on to my gold/items 38923892389892389238923x easier than another player. Hence why events wouldn't get ran because of the trust issues that you yourself just pointed out.

Bossing for an item. Your telling my I should go do a boss with my clannies that is worth something and then hold it up for random in an event? If the drop is worth anything wouldn't it be best to give it to one of the clan members that went instead of putting it up for random between clans and people who didn't help retrieve the item??

Also you seemed to ignore the rest of my post and tell me why player events would be better than staff events that take 20 mins to do when a staff does it.

Again, your main points behind player events is flawed and there is no gain from a player ran event.

So you can sit and try to point out I didn't pay attention to your post and then in turn ignore my question and I will be perfectly fine with that.

[Abstract]

Its at times like this i am glad i am no longer staff.

Jordan, you're an idiot. Your arguments make no rational sense.

Ill keep this short.

People already own clan houses. I didnt ignore your post at all, i just didnt answer the idiotic parts of it. (Which to be fair, was most of it)

Player ran events are no better or worse than staff ran events.

And how is my main point behind player run events flawed?

What are those "main points" that you decided to highlight here?

Basically it all comes down to financial gain. You want events aslong as you can benefit. Which to be fair is just pure greed. Events are ment to be fun.

[Freek]

Its at times like this i am glad i am no longer staff.

Jordan, you're an idiot. Your arguments make no rational sense.

Ill keep this short.

People already own clan houses. I didnt ignore your post at all, i just didnt answer the idiotic parts of it. (Which to be fair, was most of it)

Player ran events are no better or worse than staff ran events.

And how is my main point behind player run events flawed?

What are those "main points" that you decided to highlight here?

Basically it all comes down to financial gain. You want events aslong as you can benefit. Which to be fair is just pure greed. Events are ment to be fun.

Apparently you ignored it again.

I said why would I allow someone into my existing clan house who doesn't belong there.

How are player ran events and staff events equal? We have both touched on some events you cannot run as a mortal not to mention the problems that you would potentially face during a player ran event. To defend yourself you gave things you can do to try to counter these problems but the short and simple point is that in a staff ran event you DONT HAVE THESE PROBLEMS TO WORRY ABOUT.

As far as financial gain... Thats just LOL. How much gold do I make by winning a 1alt pt?? I'm pretty sure I spend my gold on pots and mana.. What I get is an item that is slightly better than the current items for a week. If I happen to win I get to use this item to help train or so on and then guess what? It's up for grabs the next week and I have to defend myself to get to keep the item. You see how that works? Running an event with a different boss drop every week will not only get old, people will acquire the items they need eventually and not only will this hurt the economy even more it will eventually lead to all the drops being void in essence making the event pointless again.

I know this might be a hard concept for you to grasp but events are fun because they have a reward for winning. Why join and event with a worthless prize or no prize? Sure its fun when your competing for something but how is it fun when all it was, was running to the arena to fight someone then win and that be the end of it? Might as well spend my time training. It's not greed, it's incentive.


And yet again you failed to awnser the one question I asked you. And thats WHY player events are no different and WHY staff shouldn't run them.

[Cruxis]

Events with specialized items were always sexy. Triplex amulet, band of endurance. Something NOT readily ingame will always keep people coming back, even if it's use is just a week. Some new items could even be thought of. Could even be a 30 BD cobalt for a week on all classes, EVERYONE would join for that (make a specialized bow with 27 BD incase a ranger wins )

Gold prizes/existing items are pointless when the players can gather them themselves, which seems will be happening soon.

Even if players ran an "item" event for a week, someone won, how could such a person be trusted to give it back, when someone would even try and hide them from staff before? JLH can remove items, but he's not going to listen to a random player who may or may not have ran this event. Staff simply have TRUST (I use that loosely) and AUTHORITY. It doesn't matter if players can run events, they do NOT have those expectations from everyone.

I could easily run events, but players do not respect one with no authority, sorry Jase. They barely respect those who do, you know this.

When you can be banned for being a nuisance in an event, respecting an event is much, MUCH more compliable, wouldn't you agree?

When a simple non game breaking item or amount of gold can be created instead of it just moving around the realm, probably out of a certain persons pocket who wants events so bad, they're also much much more likely to happen, given we have staff willing to run the event. Someones not gonna spend half the gold/items they make to make the rest of the server happy just to lose every event they run cause they're acct starts to suck in comparison.

Payers have the ability, not the power, and that's sad, but true. Who's to stop someone from holding a assassinate macro on my leader bringing the rest of the game to ch to protect them during event? Silly griefer, I was trying to be safe like Jase said, you can't do that! Oh wait, he just did.

Use a mage? What if no one online has one? Screwed, cause of a single turnip. Staff > Player events.

The first step if you want us to have player run events. Yell needs to consume the whole game, not just a few squares. Thing with staff if they can easily organize the players, be seen, and make NOISE happen from the client. A noise that can't be subdued as easily as "mute pages" or whatever the option is. You hear that gong from the kitchen and you see what the hell happened, you hear a page from the kitchen and you say "bish please wait."

Players do not have that ability, and would take longer to make events happen, making gold events less and less worth it. Having to make the entry fee too high cause of it, causing certain others to lose interest in the thought that they have no chance, instead of just having fun and trying for a pitance amount.

Player run events are possible, just not practical.

I'll be the event staff for this side since I have little to do recently (in America).

[Abstract]

Basically, im not staff anymore. I was giving you constructive ideas to run events yourselves. If the playerbase doesnt want to atleast try, screw it. Ill keep my idea's on the staff forums like everyone else.

<3

Jase.

[Cruxis]

We've given you plenty of reason not to try those ideas, so maybe you should've kept them there.

The best ideas are ones for both sides, if someone leaves before both sides agree, then there is simply an unwillingness to settle. You may not be staff, but you're a link between. Don't let that unwillingness fall on you. That, or you should remove yourself as a link, as Gaddy suggested.

As I said in a way to settle, the first step toward player run events would be a full game yell command, would you support and push for this Jase? (Really I expect this to be on the to-do list already, but I wouldn't know, and thus, as a player who doesn't know, I am discouraged. One reason we need staff, to KNOW what's going on. I don't care how vague staff wanna be, just let us know).

Edited by Cruxis, 18 January 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[Abstract]

You havnt given reason. You have basically said players cant run events because other players will interfere. That seems like a player issue, and not staff concern. Maybe if most if you were decent, you could do more things and enjoy the game.

Its just all bitching whining and crying. Get over it. If you cant put in any work or effort yourselves then you arnt worth staff time.

[Cruxis]

And what has always resolved that player issue of greifers? In every game online? Staff. It IS a staff concern. That might be the stupidest thing you've said.

Sad, but most people online, and in the world, are not decent. That is why we have authority in this world, cause most people are horrible and it's needed.

Edit: No effort? What do you call this? The players effort to do thing for a game typically comes in the form of using the forum.

Edit2: If staff aren't willing to properly communicate with the playerbase, are they worth the playerbase's time?
We don't constantly need words like bitchin and crying when we're trying to improve the game. That's all staff say, when they really do really nothing at all but comment, something anyone with knowledge can do.

You say we're "crying", but it looks more to me like staff being "lazy" and giving us a few words to end it instead of actually trying something.

Don't say all the typing we're doing is not effort, cause at that point, no staff but Stig does anything as well, and all should be removed but him.

Edited by Cruxis, 18 January 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Abstract]

And what has always resolved that player issue of greifers? In every game online? Staff. It IS a staff concern. That might be the stupidest thing you've said.

The above comment is the most idiotic thing i have ever heard.

Staff are not here to service your whims and desires. JLH has provided you with a platform to play on, giving you functionality. Staff have created and scultped the world the characters inhabit. Staff are not here to make sure people "play nice". You will always get idiots who will try to disrupt anything, as you will always get idiots who post on the forums with highly inflated IQ's and delusions of grandure. But aslong as it is within the constraints of the game it is NOT staff concern.

If you get PKed, thats not very social. But its not staff's job to come give you a hug and make the square nopk. Read the ToS for once.

If as a player you decide to run an event, make sure it cannot be disrupted by griefers. I can think of MANY MANY events i could run that peopel could not disrupt. And your telling me you cant think of one?

Good job.

[Cruxis]

I'm not saying for such trivial things, that should be obvious, but something along the lines of hours or (months) of harassment should be dealt with. Griefers who actually continue on people for no reason. I admit it's a small game and people will interact with the same person more often, but that doesn't mean there should be absolutely no line. That's just irresponsible to any decent player of the playerbase, and look where it's gotten us after years and years.

I could do many eventsactually, but only gold events out of my clan house. As I said, any item good enough for an event would be one to be given back, and used again. And a player cannot be trusted to give it back if I cannot penalize them.

No races are possible, no kind of specialized events with spawned monsters/npcs. Events that could be run that haven't even been thought of by current staff.

Edited by Cruxis, 18 January 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[Abstract]

No sorry you just said that players would "Grief" in a player run event and that it would be staffs problem. Dont backpedal and use words like harassment and "Hours/Months".

Harassment and griefing in player ran events are completely different things. And you have ignorepc if someone is harassing you, and if they bypass ignorepc they are delt with by staff.

You can easily race around towns.

No you cant spawn NPC's or monsters. I didnt say there wasnt any limitations to player run events. I said they could be done.

[Cruxis]

Players can't harass in an event?

People can't grief an events numerous times, for hours, for months?

I don't quite understand..it's quite possible. If someone were to pk a player run event participate enough, you would ban them? If they kept on doing so, ruining the event everytime it was tried, for months and months, constituting harassment, are you saying ignorepc would handle that? Harassment isn't just being talked to. Ignorepc just not REMOVE their EXISTENCE from your gaming experience.

What town is big enough to constitute a good race?

Edited by Cruxis, 18 January 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[Apocalypto]

Not gonna read the whining and nuts. but, were playing a text based game.. where not grown up enough to have events ourselves unless there is prevention of being an ahole... soooooo.. staff need to babysit.. end of post.

Edited by Apocalypto, 18 January 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[Prototype]

At least you can say you tried... oh wait..

Why would you, when you can just talk it into the ground. I'm sure John is dying to appoint one of these motivated people, cause motivation as we all know is talking something to death instead of making the best of things and trying. Going from a can't do to a can do attitude and still failing at least shows you're motivated enough. But no, it's better to just assume all your arguments and use them as facts.

John can give staff power on a per-command basis, for instance you can run events but nothing else. But there are no consistent players who would keep running these things, from what I've seen, and you all have a way to short fuse so abuse is pretty likely (even with almost no powers, meaning f.e. excluding people from events because you feel like it).

Nightmist hasn't been a team effort in years, there used to be bad apples of course, but now there is no collective group whatsoever. When I ran events I got nuts as well (and thats just the events part), even running a simple mosh would give staff nuts about the prize, a certain clan having an advantage because they were on more etc. If anything players get less grief when running events, because they are not hounded 24/7 claiming they are corrupt (lol).

In any case, I don't see any of it happening. Have fun playing tho. And for your information, this post is my opinion (if it wasn't evident enough from me being the one who posted it), so no need to pick it apart, go against it and calling me lazy in between the lines, just take it for what it is.

[Autek]

I haven't read everything on here, but from what I've got by scanning it events are the issue. Isn't the custom mosh price still 50k? Reduce it to 5-10k so players can start their own moshes with prizes, entry fees, money pots, etc. They can start them themselves whenever they'd like and there's no risk of a player running off with the gold pot or prize item etc.



Of course the other types of events there is still an issue with. I've never been one for events myself though so it doesn't really bother me personally if any staff are there run them.

[Dangerous]

I remember staff announcing originally why it was 50k, reason being they didn't want the game flooded by moshes, but when no one runs a single mosh at all, begs the question maybe it should be cheaper.

[Gaddy]

Not gonna read the whining and nuts. but, were playing a text based game.. where not grown up enough to have events ourselves unless there is prevention of being an ahole... soooooo.. staff need to babysit.. end of post.

^
Summary of anything I would have responded with....

[Tietsu]

All that bullnuts above.



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