22 replies to this topic

[joanna]

probably heard this xxxx times before but....

paladins should be considered as leaders, not as a solo class

ok look at clerics

unless you are using a druid/mage plus ton of thieves with pots party, or entering an area that restricts them:

clerics have been made so they are damn near essential
if you are bragging about soloing a hard boss its always x rangers/zerks and x *clerics*
it is considered a bigger challenge to attempt an area with no clerics
if you are pking a party, you almost always drop the clerics first.

ie you dont get someone shouting on fc and forums 'wow i just soloed bd with no pallies!'

The same can be said, but in different situations, of zerks, rangers, theives, druids and mages.

So improve pallies so they have equivalant status.
I dont mean give them 120+ heal, thats what clerics are for. give em something different that turns anyone who dosnt take at least one in thier boss-run parties an idiot.
Anyone who mentions 'nm2' is barred from posting on this. Whatever staff have said to you in private is just that - private. No definative announcement has been made that NM is closed to development, so it isnt.

For example... if they had a rf-style spell that boosted wis of party by 3 for 3 mins, that would help the druids and clerics in the party, just like clerics help the rangers and zerks.

It might make someone look at a party and think 'crap theres paladins in that party i might think twice before jumping them', just like now people think 'crap theres zerkers in that party i might think twice before jumping them'

To be honest, who thinks like that now? If you saw a party with ten paladins in, you would think 'i can take them with 5 alts' rather than 'crap hes got paladins ill have to take 15 alts to get his 10'

Why should paladins be treated like this? They are supposed to be natural *party* leaders, not characters whos only claim to fame is they can beat nonspellcasters one versus one - pretty obvious when 7 mana to a healer is worth the equivilant of 40 points of health in a duel (heals for 60 but takes up 1/3 of fighting ability , ie stamina, to use it). Thats like 2290 health versus 350 (taking average hps). No wonder the paladin wins!

But its a 1v1. Its utterly meaningless. You cannot get even a crystal shard drop by winning 1v1's

Edited by joanna, 15 September 2006 - 12:25 AM.

[Trevayne]

I'd love to see paladins improved in a substantial way. However, the more difficult a system is to implement, the less likely it is to actually happen. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that unless it is a ridiculously simple change to make in the NM engine the chance of it being implemented is about the same chance of a rabbit in the meadow dropping a cobalt.

What makes a change simple? Stick to something that varies a tiny bit between classes or that involves only a change to armor/equipment/available spells. For example, what if paladins had 7 stamina? What if paladins were given Holy might? What if paladins were given substantial wisdom boosts from rare items?

What makes a change hard? Any time you have to take one of the in-game rules and break it. Adding a new spell that does not already exist in game, giving paladins a new special ability, or allowing paladins to hit harder... these all require major game engine changes and/or balancing effort by JLH. These hard changes are almost certainly not going to happen.

[Ryuku]

Offensive holy magic.

Holy (kinda obvious)
Divine Annihilation
Sinful Confession

Healing, magic, and attack, I think they'd be more useful, like druids, but with better healing and lower attack.

Also, clerics hit harder than paladins, and WAY more often, even with a lower bd weapon, paladins should be able to hit for 90s ez when spelled (assuming the target has no or little ac)

[Isolated]

wont ever happen lol if it hasnt been changed after a 1 year+ complaints, its not gonna happen now lol

[joanna]

Extra stamina and holy might seem fair ideas to improve pallies, however turning them into a mini-mage wont really help... the biggest problem with pallies at the mo is that they can be a mini-cleric OR a mini-fighter, but not both. They only have 1 stamina bar. Look at it this way:

Consider a party with 2 spare slots for characters. This can be a simple 2-man party or a 20-man with 18 positions already filled. Now compare taking 2 paladins with taking a cleric and a zerk instead, in 3 different fighting situations versus monsters.

Firstly, you require no healing, or the other characters in party have the healing needs covered. In this case both paladins can fight, but the zerk with its higher damage and stamina can out-damage both the paladins put together. In addition you have an unused cleric lying there so you can use spells like enhance and RF, further increacing the zerks damage. So thats 1-0 against the paladins

Second, you require the healing of both pallies. With DR and HM, the cleric can heal roughly the same as the 2 paladins put together. Plus you have an extra bonus in that you have a spare crit, ie the zerk, to cause damage as well! That makes the score 2-0 against the pallies

The third situation is where the monster(s) is/are causing enough damage to require the use of just 1 pally for healing. This is a no-brainer, the cleric obviously out-heals the healing paladin and the zerk out-hits the fighting paladin. Three nil against the pallies.

As for the 'what if you lose a crit' or 'all your eggs in one basket' argument, if you took 2 paladins knowing that you would need the healing of 2 paladins and one died, you woudnt be able to cover your party and they would soon follow the original pally to the pub

If you give the pallies an attacking spell you can just repeat the above, substituting the zerk for a mage with the same result. Unless the spell was more powerful than beam, in which case mages purpose in game would be questioned (edit - unless it was PVM only which might be an idea)

Edited by joanna, 17 September 2006 - 08:19 PM.

[Julius]

The problem I see with Paladins is this, at low level training, their heals increase with level, clerics don't. Taking a group of paladins into a lowbie area like necro tower, your paladins are leading the way, more stamina faster, bigger heals, until aid. Once a cleric and a paladin get aid, its all over for the paladin, their aid sucks and clerics gets better. Then clerics get Divine Restoration and blow the healing out of the water, granted if you ever used DR and Aid to test them, there is hardly much difference at 30.

So at this point when paladins lose their strongest arguement to the cleric, they need to pick up something else. A spelled cleric can even outdamage a spelled paladin (self casts i.e. holy might/enhance vs champ/divine prayer/holy speeed) And the biggest problem everyone sees with paladins is their ability to freaking hit things. Unless you are a 21 dex +sgs, aoh/lp, holy speed, you cant hit to save your life.

I would really like to see an improvement, probably to stamina, but if you gave paladins a 6th stamina, then its absolutely rediculous that thieves dont get it either, I feel that it should come off of berserkers, they definently do not need it.

But, like Trevayne said, adding hit% or stamina would require significant work to the engine and would most likely not be considered. So heres looking to the future. Cheers.

[Raikou]

Give paladins 15 natural armor.

[Autek]

I think the adding a stamina point, boosting the hit %, and giving natural armor are all good ideas. I think that boosting hit % needs done regardless, then add that in combination with stamina/armor would be perfect.

One thing with the armor . . . The armor should not be granted at level 1. Maybe give 1 armor for every two levels, so that 'their armor bestowed upon them by their god increases with their devotion towards their faith'.

[Raikou]

give them a spell like RF, that only works on them. not all party members.

And yes, increase there armor by +1 for every 2 levels.

[Julius]

give them a spell like RF, that only works on them. not all party members.

They have that, its called Divine prayer. Boosts strength and dex, ie adds to hit%

[Raikou]

a better spell. like RF. that increases hitrate, not dex.

[Venture]

The way i see it is paladins heal for less than clerics so they have to have some other bonus to make up for this...

A few suggestions is maybe a better version of Circle of Healing (remove it from clerics too maybe) this would make them more party friendly because they can then heal the whole party at once.

An armor buff casted on single characters, replaces enhance from clerics so they're defensive rather than attacking like clerics (not many people use the armor spells by clerics because they just dont last long enough).

A spell that heals for something small every x seconds like a reverse poison with a duration of 1-3 minutes maybe not have this if they get the improved circle of healing spell?

A protection spell lasts 3 seconds takes all stamina (requires full stam too) for 3 seconds the monsters cant attack your party, costs lots of mana too so it cant be re-cast and abused possibly 200-250mp regardless of the number in the party.

I'm sure there'd be problems with some of these and i dont expect them all to be added because that might overpower them but just say what ya think?

[Eamon]

for three seconds monsters couldnt hit you is pretty much useless.
I cant think of a time I would use this in game.

[Lappa]

yeh that idea was bad.

i like the 6th stam idea in combination with a higher hit rate spell, make them like a fighter that can heal, but cant quite get the hp fighters have.

and... i've noticed pallys have more mp than clerics.. why? take some mp away and add to the either hp or hitrate.

[Gaddy]

Paladins do well on their own and poorly in large groups.
These suggestions of extra stamina, higher hitting damage, and extra armor would make them overpowered as an individual class.

As far as individual classes go, fighters and thieves are pretty weak for PvP and most real monster situtations, and beserkers are pathetic on their own against monsters, but paladins, mages, clerics, and druids are quite strong.
You cannot make them much better without overpowering them entirely.

[Jumpsteady]

I vote for holy bolt... or some type of casting spell... i <3 pally's but they need an equalizer... i mean clerics got wrath of god...

[Dark]

If adding to there HP/Stam/Hitrate etc would up there pvpness why not just stick to suggestions of partys spells like rf were you can be a major asset to a party, maybe not as strong as +3 wis like suggested earlier but maybe a high armour spell that cant be stacked with clerics armour spells, or a spell like rf that icnreases hit rate but not strength and lasts longer than rf but also cant stack with rf because this would be overpowering, it would be useful to the pally itself and party members without completly overpowering

[vex]

As a long time fan of the paladin class I can only think of a couple things that they need the first is a spell much like create spring i mean if a druid can forage and nourish and a cleric can create a spring why can the paladin not help its fellow party members out with a similar spell and the second being nothing they are almost perfect, alone they can do things that clerics either can not do alone or would take too much time for the player to spend doing and there is no other class as versitile as the paladin who can heal themselves and kill mosnters/players rather easy

[£ã Cò§tâ Ñótrâ]

i agree with vex, paladins are just about right the only problem i see with a paladin is the fact that they're attacks do not seem to hit very often, i mean my human paladin has 22 dex with divine prayer and like 21-22 stre, but it still seems to miss just as much as when you dont cast anythign at all

only problem is is their lacking of hit%, they dont need to do more damage just stop missing so much, and yea a spelled up cleric can do more damage melee and hit just as often as a paladin yet still heals way more than paladin, thats not right if you ask me cause a paladin is supposed to heal for less and attack for more, than a cleric, anyways thats my 2 cents

[mike14701]

paladins are suposed to be a holy class i think they should be able to smite the undead and do more dmg to undead naturally not added to weapons.and they should have a higher hit % but as in spells the spells they have are fine but smite undead should be a added skill but dunno just the higher hit % and the ability to do more dmg to undead would be fine for me

[Throwback]

the chance of it being implemented is about the same chance of a rabbit in the meadow dropping a cobalt.

plz do for me :S

[joanna]

the chance of it being implemented is about the same chance of a rabbit in the meadow dropping a cobalt.

plz do for me :S

Meadow rabbits now drop cobalts. So are we gonna see paladins improved now?

[Crane]

They don't, I'm afraid; Jay Landilex only gives them in exchange for Rabbit Fur, Rabbit Meat and Bunny Foot Necklaces - sorry!