15 replies to this topic

[EvilDognapot]

I've got issues with the current structure of NM and believe that it shouldn't need to be that way.

1. The design of current areas in 1a are restrictive to solo players and serve to consolidate wealth and power into a smaller and smaller community. Rephrased: the requirements of a majority of areas in NM are too high for players who have a limited network of friends, and provides an unfair advantage to those who do.

In practice: There are two ways to obtain a special item. Either earn the drop by completing the area at the right time or pay for it at market value. For items designed for players under lvl 20, the former is less an option than the latter. Therefore the ease at which well connected players acquire spider staffs, scarlet daggers, halberds, etc. create upward wealth flow. The powerful are able to not only acquire the items, questies, and more wealth with greater ease, but also tax the newcomers as they advance in the singular path they are forced through.

Possible Solutions: Create a means to facilitate more reciprocal exchanges of wealth. Since areas are designed so that the rewards are unattainable to the players most likely to benefit the most from them, we could simply reverse the direction that wealth travels from bottom to top by creating scenarios where items are also exchanged from bottom to top.

In practice: High level items would be obtainable by practicing low level activities so that higher tier players can't simply retain alts of optimal levels for specific areas. If, for example, Orcs, Small Snakes, or Giant Spiders were to drop keys to high level areas, low lvl players would receive the most drops and have something to sell to high level players.

This would work better than creating low level areas with high level drops, because we have enough permanent SDG, and Tower crits as is. We already know that doesn't work. However, a 1% drop rate for important keys would ensure that enough newbs would get the items and that items would not become so expensive that it would be worthwhile for higher tier players to attempt to bypass the market.

I've just been seeing a little more lately about how there's too much gold already, and blah blah blah, new players, and garbage like that. This is perfectly feasible and in all likelihood would work, but it's not as simple as ideas that wouldn't work like "make noobs not pkabel" or "make more noob areas!". We've done that already, it has no real effect, because it was never the issue in the first place. I've got other ideas, and will post as boredom ensues. This will be a receptacle for them.

[Throwback]

I've got issues with the current structure of NM and believe that it shouldn't need to be that way.

In practice: High level items would be obtainable by practicing low level activities so that higher tier players can't simply retain alts of optimal levels for specific areas. If, for example, Orcs, Small Snakes, or Giant Spiders were to drop keys to high level areas, low lvl players would receive the most drops and have something to sell to high level players.

one fundemental flaw, high levels can call all of these faster and easier than low levels. The only way to ensure low levels get the drops, make the area low level restricted which we have plenty of. You can't possibly reverse the trend that high levels retain wealth more than low levels. I don't think it is possible in any scenario, for one the simple advantage of being a better pvm, because it is a 1alt server does not restrict players to one alt. The wealthy can roll lvl 1's like any new player. Your solution has flaws that I can not find a correction for.

[EvilDognapot]

If you make it low lvl restricted, the same players will just make crits for that specific area. I can't stop the top tier of players from getting the drops but if noobs get the drops by just doing what they do (killing snakes and spiders etc.) then enough noobs will put the items on the market themselves that higher lvl players are more likely to pay 10k for a key than kill several hundred snakes, spiders, and rats for that same key.

I mean put yourself in the situation. There's a key that's selling for 1/10 of the value of the drop it allows you to get. Are you going to spend a few hours getting the key yourself, or are you going to drop a nominal amount of gold to get it right when you need it?

[Throwback]

the problem is, you assume that a low level will get more keys simply because they train there. High levels if they needed the key can kill them so fast they wouldnt need to buy them. And the market would become flooded, no impact economically would be felt for the low levels.

[EvilDognapot]

I see your point, but don't think it's impossible. Also, even if they don't get as many keys, it still puts them in the game where before they hadn't been. I think giving newbs an opportunity to join the market would be valuable, and that it is not very productive for gold pile up on the top for infinite. Because we don't spend gold the same way after lvl 30. If we buy equipment, it retains value, my katana won't. If we buy crits, they don't lose 50% of their value immediately. However, when I buy a crystal knife, it'll be rather worthless the next week.

I think the question is 'how' to apply the concept. You're right in that there is nothing that will stop our friends on the top from doing a better job at obtaining anything in NM. That's why I aim to make thier abilities irrelevant in that regard. Perhaps making the key generic and semi common, but also highly usefull. Say, to enter any particular boss square, you would need it, but the drop rate for the pass 3-5% on most monsters you find around NM and Arilin.

That way we can incorporate the already set newb training patterns and potential farmers would be in a popular pking locale. High lvl players will still get more, but at the same time, newbs will get items of moderate value compared to their needs. I really think the effectiveness is tied to what the drop goes to, the rate that it drops, and figuring out where the sweet spot is; where newbs get as much as they can under the circumstances.

Just an idea, there's other ways to go about this, but I'm trying to use only abilities that nightmist currently has. I just think it would be a good thing for money flow down also as apposed to up and to either side.

edit: and it may be that the the rates would have to be monitored and change with playing patterns, and it might be best that way too.

Edited by EvilDognapot, 21 November 2007 - 04:04 AM.

[Raylen]

It's like getting fangs from sand vipers. You COULD go and farm 100 of the bastards to get some. But the people who get fangs are the ones who kill 500 vipers whilst training. The same would/could apply to small snakes/bears.

[Gaddy]

I would say that these are the types of re-vamping things that should have been done before the 1-alt server opened.
The multi server is honestly so far out of whack with what players have and the gold in game--we've kind of dropped the idea of balancing it out.

The 1-alt server should have been able to be far more balanced, but it wsan't updated at all before opening.
It would be difficult to even begin to help the economy on that server, and it hasn't even been open very long.
I think it is past the time where a reset could be done without making a huge majority of players hate Nightmist...so, we're in a hard place with issues of balancing gold, etc.

[EvilDognapot]

well, a more dynamic market would be a step in the right direction. i mean, obviously, if nothing is done it would just be NM Concentrate. with this idea i was playing with the concept that everyone should have a role in the daily activities in NM. because, right now, i view it as problematic that NM has two tiers of players, and one is deeply reliant on the other while the other is completely independent.

[Throwback]

barring a reset, which would make me very mad, i couldnt see a way for everyone to coexist and make the "friends" they would need to be able to barter. All that would occur would be the big clans grabbing up the noobs to supply them with items of need. Im not sure what your trying to do, make to everyone is on a more level playing field? If your theory is that small time players would use the items to sell and make some gold?? What happens when they grow up? What happens when they graduate to bigger and better things? There wouldnt be a market collapse?? No what happens when they grow up is what we have now. The biggest fish goes and gets the best meal. The way it works, no way to stop that.

[Gaddy]

Perhaps it is just going to where gold will not matter much to players, and having YOUR characters will be the most important thing...which would be good in some ways.
It would also mean a lot less bickering over petty things, and possibly hard work coming in as a concept of getting the characters you can be proud of...

That is kind of an idealistic out-turn though; in reality, the economy is far far too basic for the servers to run very long without all sorts of problems coming in.
The game is a fairly simple system as far as boss drops, trading, and gold attaining...
Sadly, the simple system does not have any real outflow point, so it just builds and builds.


The Nightmist economy needs outflow--shops are not nearly enough.
Taxes would not work, and weapons slowly wearing out cannot really be implemented since I don't think anyone is going to over-haul the entire set of active weapons determining how long each should last...
Any suggestions for an outflow source other than players deleting gold?

[Angelus]

The csotw im saving for should be a big enough outflow

Anyways, player housing. I want a much bigger vault + training dummy to test stuff on, but reluctant (i just make words up sometimes, but it feels good) to put it into clan for obvious reasons (clan sells/i leave clan/i get forced to leave clan/takes too much gold after a while etc.)

[Throwback]

You mentioned a tax and said its not a viable option. I however disagree. What if we made nightmist pay to play, but not for irl money. Say you get charged by the hour for your server time. This would discourage gate sitting, as you would rack up your time and wouldnt be able to offord w/o moving. What a good rate would be im unsure, but 1k a hour is not too much imo. Sure your a low level and skels and such may be not be enough gold. How about until you reach 20 hours of game time the tax does not come into play. Im not sure how you could actively allow the server to remove gold from an character but maybe like you could get a bill of some short, that is sent to your characters and that you can pay straight out of an account.

Edited by Throwback, 21 November 2007 - 09:42 PM.

[EvilDognapot]

barring a reset, which would make me very mad, i couldnt see a way for everyone to coexist and make the "friends" they would need to be able to barter. All that would occur would be the big clans grabbing up the noobs to supply them with items of need. Im not sure what your trying to do, make to everyone is on a more level playing field? If your theory is that small time players would use the items to sell and make some gold?? What happens when they grow up? What happens when they graduate to bigger and better things? There wouldnt be a market collapse?? No what happens when they grow up is what we have now. The biggest fish goes and gets the best meal. The way it works, no way to stop that.

I don't want to stop anything, I just want to introduce players in the other half of the game with the players on the top half. I realize that there's no stopping the grind, the grind is the game. Besides, whenever we try to stop things in NM, we just reward the people who figure out how to ignore the barriers. All I'm trying to say is that there needs to be more top to bottom wealth flow. It helps newbs, and gets gold off the market because newbs actually do spend the gold whereas the rest of us invest in things appreciate in value, or depreciate very little. I know it's not big, but the difference between zero and one is quite a lot, and right now wealth only goes in two directions: between high lvl players for crits/items that retain value, and into the game for items that don't retain value, and newbs make up most of the latter.

The last thing we need is to have another main server where all the active players are part of the millionaires club.

[EvilDognapot]

You mentioned a tax and said its not a viable option. I however disagree. What if we made nightmist pay to play, but not for irl money. Say you get charged by the hour for your server time. This would discourage gate sitting, as you would rack up your time and wouldnt be able to offord w/o moving. What a good rate would be im unsure, but 1k a hour is not too much imo. Sure your a low level and skels and such may be not be enough gold. How about until you reach 20 hours of game time the tax does not come into play. Im not sure how you could actively allow the server to remove gold from an character but maybe like you could get a bill of some short, that is sent to your characters and that you can pay straight out of an account.

That sounds kind of harsh, people don't really like taxes at any level. I mean it probably wouldn't be a big deal for the players in your situation, but I can't imagine it would be welcome at the same time (but what do I know, I've yet to reach the right lvl in 1a). Besides, after awhile, the fun of NM is talking to friends and that shouldn't be taxed.

I'm trying to find a method for helping noobs that won't affect high lvl players one way or the other. That's why I'm concerned with the viability of incorporating low level training habits with high lvl recreation. Both types of players would be doing what they do normally, but if in that process noobs can get something to offset the costs advancement in some way, then that would be good.

[Throwback]

all i am saying is that there isnt much of a way to prevent high lvls from dominating the low lvl training areas

[EvilDognapot]

well we're agreed on that. i'm just trying to envision a scenario where high lvls can dominate what they want, but low lvls can have some role in what goes on in the higher tier.