12 replies to this topic

[Stig]

So I have a question for everyone who plays 1-alt.  How would you rank the shop-bought 'training' weapons? I would suggest the Japanese-style ranking system of S, A, B, C, D and E (best to worst).  I'm curious to know what everyone thinks of them and which ones are worth purchasing in general.  This may or may not result in some tinkering or analysis!

 

Comments welcome.

 

Note: I will also accept the Scimitar as one of these weapons, even though it's a boss drop.

 

(To clarify, the training weapons are: Apex Bow, Avenger's Crossbow, Ballista, Diamondedge, Erebus Lance, Orcsbane, Moonsilver Stave, Royal Sword, Sarin Trident and Shepherd's Crook)

[brewcrew]

Erebus lance -S - enough wights to be able to take advantage of the 2x mod, higher bd and all wights have a good gold return ratio (1m cost of weapon), and all mobs have decent XP

 

Royal Sword-S- Great for farming bandits and dungeon, useful on boss runs especially on fighter 2x mod is great.

 

Diamondedge- E Thieves generally being underpowered the 23 bd doesnt make up for its lack of better xp'd mods. Also its an Armor breaker, but no suits of armor mod. Low BD and low XP mobs on the modded parts make this a bit lackluster (outside of dragon and malok who is never done) the boss mods dont really compensate.

 

Sarin Trident- A Good all around, works on most bug types good mod 21 bd which is not bad, good gold return.

 

Ballista- B Could probably bump this to an A if pallies were just a tad better. Has ok mods decent gold return mid range xp pod

 

Shepherd's Crook- C only about 1 area in the game where this is useful which is orchard of spirits. Its super OP there but lack of variety makes it meh

 

Avenger's Crossbow- B decent option for ranger/ thieves killing bandits (lots of bandit mod weapons) needs a decent bump in bd or an added mod for it to be bumped to A for me

 

Orcsbane- A Being able to kill GE with this really gives it the ranking of A, other than that 70 pod is about what you will hit with it, has an ok less than average return on gold

 

Scimitar- E Fun mods, would like to see thieves be able to use it, also 1.5 seems a tad underpowered but i think that boss drops should have higher BD and Modifiers on it than a shop bought but it is very easily attainable.

 

Apex Bow- B -would like to see  the mod bumped to 2 from 1.7, great training bow

 

Moonsilver stave- C poor mans wooden stake or steak, has decent modifiers for those not around during quests its ok, low bd some return on gold investment.

Edited by brewcrew, 18 January 2022 - 06:03 PM.

[Banishment]

Erebus Lance S - because of damage mods for the highest pod mobs like Pit Wraiths and Skeletal Wights which makes this the fastest way to train.

 

Royal Sword S - Multiple boss mods(Dragon/Drow) which is great for fighters and paladins because they hit like wet noodles and also great for farming bandit drops.

 

Orcsbane A - GE boss mod.

 

Apex Bow  B - Would be an A if it was 2x mod like the other weapons, rangers miss enough as it is so I don't think it would be overpowered.  Great for EXPing on 100 pod Lioness which makes ranger training bearable.

 

Avenger's Crossbow  C - being one of the best items for farming bandit drops.

 

Sarin Trident C - boss mods and possible dessy training.

 

Shepherd's Crook D - I find it has very limited uses outside of Orchard.

 

Scimitar E -  1.5 mod isn't worth the loss of vamp.

 

Moonsilver Stave E - has mods for just awful pod monsters imo.

 

Diamondedge E - lmao.  I agree with what Brewcrew said.

Edited by Banishment, 18 January 2022 - 06:47 PM.

[Gregory67]

So this post will be incredibly long but details. Apoligies.

 

Apex Bow Ranger only - bear:1.7(5 Unique)|fox:1.7(3 Uniques)|leopard:1.7(1 Unique)|lion:1.7(3 Unique)|wolf:1.7(3 Unique)  Rated: B

 

After some review on this a bump on the modifiers from 1.7 to 2.0 wouldn't hurt. It would still be within the same damage range of some other classes that currently have 2x mods such as druid/paladin. 35 Paladin with champs can do 204 with Royal Sword. At 36 with 18 or 19 str I was doing 169 as my high damage I think. Bear/fox/wolf/lion are all great mods with alot of great different options even without a party. Only one or two modifiers for a boss.  From my knowledge only the snow leopard exists and is a below average monster with not alot going for it. Also, limited to a single class. If we could expand on the leopard more I would say all the mods on this exemplify what we want in a training weapon.

 

 

Avenger's Crossbow Fighters, paladins, rangers, thieves - bandit:2(3 Unique)|malok:2(1 Unique)|marauder:2(2 Unique)|rogue:2(2 Unique)|thief:2(2 Unique) - Rated: C for Solo, Maybe B for team.

 

I really wanted to rate this higher but the mods on this weapon are difficult to use on more than thief and ranger. Also, Bandit mod is doubled up on Royal Sword for fighter/paladin which is also 25bd vs 20bd. Only thief can utilize the Malok/Thief mod because of expert and guard thieves. For the solo aspect marauders arent exactly solo able and to buy this just to kill marauders to get a few bleeding hearts seems like a waste of resources in the long run. You can use it on Mine Maurader which is a bonus but not enough to redeem how few monsters use that. Having only two monsters for Rogue which isnt something you would train on is also a difficult notion. In the end this weapon is inflexible which is what lowers the rating on it for me. If we had more options to hit more monsters with the modifiers it could be rated higher.

 

Ballista Fighter, Paladins, Rangers - giant:2 (17 Unique) | guard:2(3 Unique) | knight:2(4 Unique) | paladin:2(1 Unique) | warrior:2 (4 Unique) Rated: C for solo, S for castle runs in particular

 

Good for Fighter/Paladin but since rangers cannot Rapid Fire with this weapon and have a higher miss rate/lower damage with normal attacking it is kind of a wash for a ranger. The range of the modifiers is pretty good but mostly is used for Darksparrow Castle runs. I could see an argument to use it on gnoll guards/warriors, Giant Vampire Bats, Giant Sand Wurm and farming black shards from black knights since paladins heal they arent a great solo farming option. It also works on some other mobs like Dungeon Guard, Teptok Warrior, Drow Warrior, Skeletal Warrior, Goblin Warrior but alot of these are difficult to train on solo or dont really yield enough of a reward vs the risk. Then you have monsters like Crystal Giant/Guard Spider that require a Magical Weapon or you get reduced damage. Giant Mod has alot of unique monsters but many of these are either bosses, monster that require magical weapon, or really low level content. 

 

Diamondedge Thief Only - beetle:2(2 Unique) | crab:2(1 Unique) | dragon:2 (3 Unique) | scarab:2 (2 Unique) | spider:2 (9 Unique) Rated: D

 

This weapon seems good for some of the area for solo but the lack of variety and not being magical means it will do lesser damage to all dragons/guard spider. Viable monsters are limited to Mutant Beetle, Scarab, Mutant Crab, Elite Sentry Spider, Wolf Spider and Sand Spider(3-5 rounds?). Non viable monsters Albino Beetle(Poisons), Skeletal Scarab(spawns from ibis statue), and Guard spider(Low Pod, Low gold, requires magical. Most of the content for thieves is hard if they cannot click it or atleast 2 rounds. Alot of the content they can do with this weapon isnt exactly high pod or high gold.

 

Erebus Lance - demon:2|shadow:2|torture:2|wight:2|wraith:2 Rated A

Overall plentiful of solo and team opportunities. I rated this an A because I feel thief should be added to this since you have all classes except thief. I understand not seeing a thief use this weapon but as a pure accessibility I think thief should be added.

 

Orcsbane - ettin:2|goblin:2|ogre:2|orc:2|troll:2 Rated B

The Race mods that have bosses and good easy to kill monsters are great. Lower Rated due to lack of accessible solo medium to high pod content. Orcs/trolls/ogres are all lower pod and then you have goblin being inaccessible since you would have to go kill faravar goblins which hit incredibly hard. Ettin seems okay but if I remember correctly they have a bit of armor, gold was reduced, easy to drag so hit and run is tough with all the other monsters and hit rather rapidly.

 

Moonsilver Stave - skeleton:2|skeletal:2|spirit:2|vampire:2|wolf:2 Rated E

Rated Lowely due to the fact that we are wasting 2 modifiers for very limited content. Skeleton/skeletal could be shortened to skelet. Then Skelet is only subpar for the regular attacking classes due to the high armor on the Skeletal Wight. This weapon is decent on skeleton, Skeletal Warrior and scarab skeleton but none of this content is anything to write home about. Spirit is also not really a viable training option. Vampire you really only get Bats or Masoleum which is littered with a ton of other mobs no safe squares hard to hnr the tough mobs in there. You have winged Vampire but it has higher armor and really isnt a selling point for this weapon. So the end of my rating is you can kill tundra wolf or vampire bats. Either changing the monsters this affects or adding more monsters with the same names to make this have more variety would make it more valuable.

 

Royal Sword - bandit:2|dragon:2|drow:2|dungeon:2|teptok:2 Rated: S

Great easy mobs medium content. Race mods seem to be better than class mods since this has so much utility for some of the harder content which makes fighter/paladin more viable options. Viable for all bandits, dragons, most of dungeons and most of kunal runs and drow blade mage. Very broad content that this weapon can hit.

 

Sarin Trident - bee:2|beetle:2|hornet:2|scorpion:2|spider:2 Rated: C

Mostly use this for Desert training. This was really nice to train on Mutant Beetles but with Ho Ho Hoe also affecting Cinder Beasts I find myself using that instead even for less BD.  Mostly because Bronze/Titan Hornets hit hard and poison so not having vamp is tough to mitigate the guaranteed damage. Scorpions are super sticky so its hard solo hnr train on them. Also, as you pointed out to me earlier Bee and Beetle are basically doing the same thing so we could leave bee remove beetle and add another mob to make this more versitile.

 

Shepherd's Crook - crystal:2|elemental:2|golem:2|granite:2|statue:2 Rated: C

Works well on CG since weapon is magical. Great on elemental but lacking on other mobs due to the high difficulty areas. So you really could only use this solo on Elementals which you need several keys to access and Granite Beasts which are low pod and not a great option to train on for several 100 millions of exp. Abandoned Golem, Clay Golem, Coal Golem, ibis statue, anubis statue. Really just not very versatile and requires you to live on 1 or 2 monsters. 

 

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Most of these weapons could be easy improved by either changing alot of monsters to have an afix in front of the name and targeting that so the weapons are more versatile. I find the weapons that are lacking are very at one thing or two things but the weapons that excell are broad and cover area and not just 1 or 2 monsters. Example could be you could change Blackweald monsters to reflect the name in the name and just put blackweald in the weapon. So change Blackweald Wolf Spider, Blackweald Wight, Blackweald Shadow Wraith ETC.. Just some ideas. I may touch base on some of the other Modified weapons later or an idea to maybe migrate some newer ones in to cover more of the monsters that are major leveling item droppers. I got lazier toward the end of this so I could be missing a few things.

Edited by Gregory67, 19 January 2022 - 04:20 AM.

[Hansol]

won't bother to delve into this too much because the above posters already did in full detail

 

the current problem is that erebus/orc/royal/sarin/apex are all A/S tier and vastly overshadow the other weapons

 

finding 1 or 2 niche uses on an obscure monster does not justify the power differential

I do not believe that the other weapons are too strong but instead the other weapons are just too weak

 

diamond/avengers/ballista/moon/shepherd could use some minor buffs

 

buffs could include a class table expansion/slight base increase/more appealing monster tables

Edited by Hansol, 19 January 2022 - 05:14 AM.

[Stig]

Thank you everyone for the feedback.  I have since made an update to the game and the weapons.

[Nerve]

Thank you everyone for the feedback.  I have since made an update to the game and the weapons.

 

So I've been testing the changes to Diamondedge and I might post in a separate thread with results. But i have to ask why hornets on a training weapon for an already underperforming class that just cant do it?

 

I'm one of the only thief players left and they cant even do them with balt they just don't hit hard enough to get back much hp from vamp, same problem they have with any such mod is their hit is so bad they don't benefit much from 2x multiplier

 

I tried suits and the amount of health they have vs damage i deal, let's just say i wouldnt be there long cause i would have to blow through a ton of pots rather quick.

 

I dunno, I just feel its not exactly a "training weapon" for a thief in its current state.

[Banishment]

I believe the biggest reason anyone would buy this weapon was for the ability to click crabs and gold, and as I don't see thieves soloing Hornets anytime soon for any reason, you had Dragon mod for bosses where you wouldn't have worry about your health.  27 Base damage would help a little too.

 

Edit: Just noticed they needed Insect Wings for 37.(lmao)

Edit: 36 dwarf thief, 23 str and diamondedge, 10 rats to kill a Titan Hornet !

Edited by Banishment, 20 January 2022 - 03:39 PM.

[Stig]

So would you suggest replacing "armor:2" with "crab:2"? It would fit better with animal carapaces better anyway.

[Banishment]

Unfortunately I just don't think there's any kind of weapon that will put thieves on the same level as other classes, but I would say leave Armor and remove Hornet for Crab.

Edit: Also the only real thief training weapon is Machete on Assassin Vines  Will take some Garden Sheers with Vine mod x5 and Hedge Minion x2 >.>

Edited by Banishment, 20 January 2022 - 03:52 PM.

[Nerve]

Unfortunately I just don't think there's any kind of weapon that will put thieves on the same level as other classes, but I would say leave Armor and remove Hornet for Crab.

 

I agree with this i suppose. From a lore perspective i think armor is good. I just dont think hornets makes sense either way.

 

Most of the issues i suppose are more the class than the weapon cause they would have to purposely made OP for thief to be decent with them just would be nice to have more use out of them then Landscaping (killing assassin vines with machete) or killing Mansion Owner, Oh and sdg at low levels Lol

 

Time to start that petition to send to jlh about reverting them...(that he supposedly agreed to and never happened, thats what i was told anyways)

Edited by Nerve, 20 January 2022 - 04:01 PM.

[brewcrew]

I would agree that the crab mob is one of the only reasons to really purchase a diamondedge....this one will be hard to balance in general

[Stig]

I'm convinced.  Hornet removed, and crab reinstated.

(And I fully support reverting the Thief nerf, but it's something I personally have no power over)