19 replies to this topic

[Crane]

I'm pushing it a bit now with the number of Paladin suggestions I've made... Dwarven Paladins, the Protégé spell, and now another spell, albeit a lot simpler than my last one.

Laying on Hands

Mana Cost: 10 mana
Required Level: 32
Scroll Cost: Boss drop, otherwise 6,000 gold. I personally feel it's too powerful to be a regular guild spell.
Effect: Heals for as much as the Cleric Aid spell.

Description: The ultimate power granted by the gods to their most devoted warriors is the ability to lay on hands. By applying pressure with both hands, healing energy direct from the heavens can course through the noble Templar's palms into the target, or into themselves. However, only those who have proven their worth to the cloth could possibly be blessed with such a gift.


Note, the name I took from "The Complete Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition Archive", and the PDF I have forbids copying and pasting from it directly (interestingly, the next spell listed after "Laying on Hands" is none other than "Aura of Protection"!)


The strength of Paladin's Aid is only 70% that of Cleric's Aid, and since 7 mana (the cost of Aid) is 70% of 10 mana (the cost of Laying on Hands), this spell approximately heals for the same amount of HP per mana point used, which is somewhere around 9:1 in most cases.

I have no real strong argument for this spell, other than it shouldn't be too hard to program and those Paladins that possess this spell will be very useful indeed, both alone and in parties. For the area developers, it gives them another possible boss drop to play around with - if no new areas are to be introduced, I would suggest that it drops from the Ethereal Confine at the end of Castle Darksparrow.

[Isolated]

Definetly supported, please add ths in JLH

good thinking, as usual crane

[shomer]

ooh this would be a nice addition..it would probably be the thing to push me to use a pally or two in my party

supported

[Crane]

A Cleric will still be the better healer in most cases, but coupled with a strong weapon and (possibly) the Protégé spell, a Paladin could potentially be a very powerful crit. The main drawbacks to Laying on Hands are the high mana cost and possibly the rarity of the scroll (and I think it should be relatively uncommon).

[Yggdrasill]

I would suggest that it drops from the Ethereal Confine at the end of Castle Darksparrow.

Another paladin drop that's not going to make it in to 1-alt anytime soon? :'(

Nonetheless, supported.

[Crane]

I would suggest that it drops from the Ethereal Confine at the end of Castle Darksparrow.

Another paladin drop that's not going to make it in to 1-alt anytime soon? :'(

Nonetheless, supported.

Well, we can't make it too easy to get, but might such a drop encourage Paladin users to train up and band together to take that area on?

[Yggdrasill]

I would suggest that it drops from the Ethereal Confine at the end of Castle Darksparrow.

Another paladin drop that's not going to make it in to 1-alt anytime soon? :'(

Nonetheless, supported.

Well, we can't make it too easy to get, but might such a drop encourage Paladin users to train up and band together to take that area on?

I wish that is how it worked. The best druid helm is from a lvl 25 and under boss but as far as I know no one has killed it on 1-alt, maybe 1 kill. I know it's not a fair comparison as this spell would be game-breaking for paladins and the druid helm isn't.

I vote it's in Darksparrow for multi and somewhere else for 1-alt. Or Darksparrow is just opened for 1-alt...but that's another topic altogether.

[Isolated]

someone had a ghularg kill on their profile, so its been at least once!

but i'd be glad to help, leveling saint atm, and have drought

[Crane]

Came up with a couple of alternative functions for Laying on Hands:

1) 10 mana, 1 stamina, Cleric Aid strength (original suggestion)
2) 10 mana, 1 stamina, Cleric Aid strength, cannot self-cast (due to the way you have to push into a target)
3) 40 mana, all stamina, (Cleric Aid * current stamina) strength (almost like an assassinate for the undead, although you can use it to give yourself or a companion an emergency heal.)

Some things that sprung to mind.

[Raylen]

LOL assassinate for pallys XD

also funny about aop hehe, but then we always knew jlh got 101% of his ideas from d&d, its also socially unacceptable to admit owning that book, although if you said you got it out of the library i think that would be worse

maybe

if you said you robbed it

that would work

[Crane]

LOL assassinate for pallys XD

also funny about aop hehe, but then we always knew jlh got 101% of his ideas from d&d, its also socially unacceptable to admit owning that book, although if you said you got it out of the library i think that would be worse

maybe

if you said you robbed it

that would work

Well luckily I'm not that interested in being socially acceptable! Rather than an actual book, I own a protected PDF file that was given to me by Charon.

I'm not totally sure which mechanic I like better: a strong but regular heal or a super-strong, stamina-draining heal.

[Crane]

Thinking about it, though per stamina the heal is not the strongest, a Paladin shouldn't have a stronger single heal than a Cleric, and when a Paladin is high-level it will have more stamina than a Cleric anyway and hence will be the strongest healer in the game.

So, I'll stick with the regular single-stamina Laying on Hands that I initially suggested. I know most players will want it to be available for self-cast, but I better leave that to the staff to decide, if they like the spell at all, that is.

[Crane]

Just a small question, and be honest... do you think Laying on Hands will make a Paladin too powerful? Like, something with a heal comparable to a Cleric's but able to hit harder? It's one reason why I brought up the suggestion of not allowing self-cast and the relatively high mana cost.

Edited by Crane, 05 March 2009 - 10:58 AM.

[Yggdrasill]

Well it's going to be as powerful as cleric aid right? Not Divine Restoration? Then no, I don't think it will be too powerful.

But you have to ask yourself, what's a paladin supposed to be good at? When I think of a paladin, especially in the world of Nightmist, I think of defense. This is why you'll never see me post something about fixing their hit rate because it's not broken. What is broken, in my opinion, is their lack of defensive capabilities. Yes having 29+ dex when itemed and spelled makes them somewhat dodgy and they have decent armor. But when I think that spelled up druids have a lot more armor (60+ more?) and feel like they are just as dodgey without 29 dex, fighters have more armor and health, clerics heal for more and spelled have more armor, ect, I feel like paladins are useless for the most part. They're stuck in this void between offense and defense, and aren't really good at either because they can't specialize in either direction. Again, this is all my opinion as I haven't had a 30+ paladin in more than a couple years so my information may be completely out of date.

I think having a bigger healing spell is one way to make them more defensive. Can't make it too big or cost too little or they'll outclass clerics, but I honestly don't think there's any danger of that without going pretty far overboard with this healing idea. I don't really enjoy the healing "assassinate" idea. I honestly don't think I'd use it often, if ever, on party members or myself even if it healed for slightly more. And I especially don't like the can't affect yourself heal. Seems like it would be taking paladins in a completely different direction then they start out in.

There are various other "balanced" ways to make them slightly better to the point of being useful again. Add some armor value to items only paladins can use, add some abilities, like holy shield that improves shield block rate or just flat adds armor, or auras that only affect them or affect their entire party (whole party buffs can throw off balance fast though) like much of the paladin lore has. Honestly there are TONS of things that can be done to at least make them more interesting and therefore more played. Just takes a little bit of creativity and a lot of testing.

Sorry if I hijacked your thread, feel free to jump back on target.

[Crane]

You haven't hijacked it at all - those were all very valid points.

The problem with Nightmist is that most of the defensive manoeuvres, party buffs and support spells have been given to the Cleric, with the odd one on the Druid and Mage. I did give suggestions like giving Vision and a more powerful Dispell to Mages to give them some support spells in order to spread it out a bit, but there are worries over making Mages more powerful in terms of ambushing people.

Long story short, it leaves little space for Paladins unless the staff are willing to take a few risks and gambles.

POST SCRIPTUM: I don't really like the heal "assassinate" either; was something that sprung to mind and I thought I'd bring it up. If Laying on Hands makes it into the game, I personally feel it should be quite a rare spell, much rarer than Divine Restoration and Aura of Protection, because it does close the gap between Paladins and Clerics quite considerably.

Edited by Crane, 05 March 2009 - 11:34 PM.

[Crane]

I have found another reason why it shouldn't be self-cast, and not just for role-play reasons (since Laying on Hands requires you to push into your target)...

Paladins excel at duelling - in the 1-alt PT yesterday, I found myself up against a Level 37 Druid with a Cobalt Staff of the Winds and a Level 37 Ranger with a Cobalt Bow during the round robin (I had a Sovereign Sword), and I won both fights; If I was able to cast Laying on Hands on myself I would be all but unstoppable.

So my refined suggestion for the Laying on Hands spell:

Cost: 10 mana, 1 stamina
Effect: Cleric Aid
Restrictions: Cannot self-cast.

In a way, it's like the Pacifist's powerful Depurate Undead not being usable as a heal spell, forcing the user to resort to Salve in these instances.

[Stadicx]

Well you were 2 levels ahead. If you would of lost I would of called hacks! Haha. Anyways, Agree.

[Yggdrasill]

I'm not convinced (with this sample size of two) that this was domination and not just and RNG leaning towards your favor. But if it really was domination then maybe they don't need any extra heal at all, for themselves or otherwise. There isn't enough data at this point to make a wise decision imo.

[ice_cold]

not supported. paladins shouldnt heal for as much as clerics. if theyre heal was raised it should be to raise regular aid by a few points, thats all. paladins are pretty good people just dont realise it. crane, didnt you yourself say that you can beat almost any crit on main 1vs 1 and win? that doesnt make much sense to me, ofcourse unless you want to make your main stronger, thats how things get unbalanced.

[Eternyte]

The reason Crane manages to beat people 1 vs 1 on main is because he's level 40, don't lose sight of this fact!

Paladins most definately need an upgrade and have done since god was a boy. Mainly it's the age old "they need to hit more", well for 26-29 dex they definately do need to hit more, infact I'd go so far as to say they should never miss, and rarely get hit.

Bringing me onto another point; people hardly use Paladins in both multi and 1 alt. Is there a hint around somewhere, I'm sure there is but I can't see it.

Anyway, as usual make spells actually make a difference!! and...

The spells are given via various tasks set out in the different level paladin guilds. On completion of the task, a scroll shall be rewarded. Once task is complete it can't be done again.

/cast Might/Paladin, Increases str and dex by 3. - Uses 1 mana every 10 seconds, lasts for 2 minutes. Unless the spell is recasted which removes the aura. Or another aura is casted. - Level 10.

/cast Prayer/Paladin, Increases int and wis by 4. - Uses 2 mana every 10 seconds, lasts 2 minutes. Unless the spell is recasted which removes the aura. Or another aura is casted. - Level 15.

/cast Bless/Paladin, Increases max hp and mp by 50. - Uses 2 mana every 5 seconds, last 2 minutes. Unless the spell is recasted which removes the aura. Or another aura is casted. - Level 20.

/cast Vigor/Paladin, Increases armor by 50. - Uses 2 mana every 5 seconds, last 2 minutes. Unless the spell is recasted which removes the aura. Or another aura is casted. - Level 25.

/cast Regenerate/Paladin, Heals for 5hp every 1 second. Uses 2 mana every 1 seconds, last 2 minutes. Unless the spell is recasted which removes the aura. Or another aura is casted. - Level 29.

Each aura is granting the enhanced powers to their party members. All 5 auras maybe stacked if there are 5 paladins in the same party casting different auras. However, a single aura cannot be stacked at all. This might bring paladins more towards party quests for training and bosses.

I probably would modify a lot of what I suggested in terms of stats mod and mp usages, however, the general ideas remain extant.