324 replies to this topic

[Matt]

I have one thing to say, Bush is a joke.

I better not visit this thread anymore, if I do, I will just get into debates/arguements/fights and get ban.

[Lich]

OK abortion is the reason our population is falling. WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i know a few other things you keep forgetting shut up let me type this. Sticks mecs passy in.


Ok lets see in the last ten years our population has dropped i found one statistic showing that in the last ten years the population has dropped by 6.2 millon people give or take a few hundred thousand.

So lets break this down shall we.

The murder ratio for the last ten years, 3 millon.

Death by accidents 1.5 millon.

Death by natural causes this of coarse is an estamate as are all of them on the website I found it all. 1.1 million people, Im still wondering how you get a .1 of a person.
and last but not least Abortion which experts say is responsable for .1 millon of the population reason decrease. the website also goes on to say that it is also due to the fact more people are using protection during sex as well.

So please stop using that Arguement because i see no proof that Abortion is a freat risk over all the others, Also Please stop saying that we all agree that because I see 5 people sayinf the opposite of you and one saying he agrees with you and that is you.

What did the baby ever do? It's innocent. You did it too, nobody aborted you! The child DESERVES to live!

It didnt do anything in fact it hasnt had brain waves, heart movements or anything thing else for that matter the only one even calling it a baby is you. It is not considered alive untill it has done any or all of the things i listed in my post above but since you have ignored them, and i believe because you are to scared to answer the fact that i have actually posted statistic's, posted you answers directly out of the EMT handbook to discerning life, and I think you are to scared to answer them as you are unable to.

Yes we refer to the baby as apart of the mother just like her arm, because in esence untill he day that it is capable of showing any one of the Signs of human life, Again posted in the post you ignored it is nothing more than just that. If there was something wrong with your arm, or your arm was injured to the point of being dead and your doctor deemed it was bad for your mental health to leave un removed he would. well a fetus is the same.

Your age matters in this case because your arguements are childish and therefore i will talk to you as though you are a child untill you speak and act other wise. There now you may throw in your typical but its a baby. since that is all you have been able to say since the start of this thread.


Edit:made it sound more confrontational since he has ignored all other attempts at a decent debate

[Lich]

If you think I'm 14 my profile is lying.

How come if I'm too young to understand it then why is what I say mostly correct. When I'm not sure, I say so. Also, I seem to have considerably better grammar skills than many people who are posting here.

Besides: Age doesn't decide anything really. That's just how long a time someone
has had to grasp concepts of reality. Some people can do it more quickly than others.

Murder is not hard to understand anyway, I back away from rape subject except I know that murder won't solve any problem, really.

I still stick with this:
1. All men were created equally.

2. Therefore they have an unalienable right to life.

Care to argue with those?

Use logic and then find out if babies have an unalienable right to life.

edit: Oh, and try to define abortion without using 'killing'. Everyone will agree here that abortion is killing babies.

No one has agreed with thata and none of us will. I have already used logic for this but i will one more time since you are to blind to go look at what i said.


Abbortion is not murder when it is performed with in the legal limits, all the instances of actions that your Sister did and you brought to this forum do not come untill after the legal cut off. In the first trimester the baby doesn't have a heart beat. (Clinically dead), There is no movement (Physically dead), and lastly there is no brain activity at all. (brain dead). If an adult was looked at and found to have these three points they would be subject to disconection of life support, and never attached to it in the first place if they showed any of them before being attached.

I am also a maryland state Emergency medical tech, When you call us to your house because your mother stopped breathing we will not even start CPR if one of three things accure. The releasing of the bowes(meaning they have crapped on your floor), Their heart shows a flat line on the cardio(It is not the movies that flat line doesnt mean shock. It means I hope you have kissed your ass goodbye, no amount of shocking will bring you back.


Next even if you classify it as a human life. Which i wont do untill it has met with the things above. Untill it is 18 years of age it's parents or guardians are incontrol of its total existance. Incuding its life or death, What do i mean by that? Did you know that on a child under 18 if you are in a vegitative state there is brain activity(something not diplayed in a fetus) your guardians can remove you from life support and do what is called breath or die. You cant breath on your own you die fully. Using that logic if outside of the womb the fetus doesnt breath on its own it dies.

[Cule]

Picture removed due to inappropiate language.

lich being the fluffy and brown ... mec being the yellow poop

Edited by Deval, 23 July 2004 - 12:18 AM.

[Lady_Maha]

No, because all men are CREATED equal, and a fetus exists, therefore it must have been created.



Ok...

Here, you guys are saying that a Fetus is NOT living.

but then you say a Fetus is basically part of the mother.

I believe my arm is living right now.



There is NO shame to having a child! If there is, you've been doing something unacceptable and you must face the conseqeunces(sp?). I'd say there's more shame to have an abortion than a birth.

Soldiers fight for and help their country, they should be respeted. Fathers and mothers also should be looked up at with respect. They helped bring people to America to benefit it.

Let me explain social security.

The old people who can no longer work get money, called social security.

This money comes out of working people's paychecks. A little bit of your paycheck goes to these old people.

When you are old, the younger people's paychecks will help pay YOUR social security.


Now, if there are fewer people to work when I'm an old man, thanks to abortion, either I, the old man, suffers OR more money could be taken out of each paycheck. Either way, either I (an old man), or the younger people will live more poorly.


Abortion both destoys potential life, and makes existing life more miserable.

So pretty much, I don't wanna pay for your stupid, selfish abortion!

Mec, oh Mec, let me take your posts apart again.

No, because all men are CREATED equal, and a fetus exists, therefore it must have been created.

Ok...

Here, you guys are saying that a Fetus is NOT living.

but then you say a Fetus is basically part of the mother.

I believe my arm is living right now.

A foetus in the first trimester is nothing more than a lump of cells, uncapable of living on it's own. A lot of pregnancies end themselves during the first trimester because the mother's body recognizes something is wrong with the foetus, most miscarriages during the first trimester happen because of that. Are you saying nature is committing murder by programming the mother's body to abort a child that is not healthy? Let's charge nature and whoever made it with murder then.

Your arm is living? Are you saying that amputation is murder? Let's sue all those who had a limb amputated. Awesome, we have some sort of god and amputees on trial now. What else Mec? What about Cancer cells? The are part of the body and show a few characteristics of life. Shall we sue anyone who is fighting cancer?

There is NO shame to having a child!  If there is, you've been doing something unacceptable and you must face the conseqeunces(sp?).  I'd say there's more shame to have an abortion than a birth.

If I am raped I did something unacceptable? How so? Did I bring it upon myself by my behavior? I'm awfully sorry, I didn't realize it was my fault. Maybe I should have cloaked myself like the women in Afghanistan used to, to prevent potential rapists from identifying me as a possible victim.

Soldiers fight for and help their country, they should be respeted.  Fathers and mothers also should be looked up at with respect.  They helped bring people to America to benefit it.

My husband is a former US soldier, I am a mother, and so far you haven't shown either of us any respect. Perhaps it is because I took my two children (both dual citizens) out of the US to enrich the German social security system?

Abortion both destoys potential life, and makes existing life more miserable.

Eating eggs destroys potential life, eating a cow destroys existing life! You murderer!

So pretty much, I don't wanna pay for your stupid, selfish abortion!

And I don't want to pay with my body and mental health for some rapist's sex drive by having to carry out his baby. Going on the pill is preventing life from forming too. What am I, a friggin birth machine?

[Paranormal]

Who are we to judge? Why not let each individual person decide what's best for their own situation? Instead of throwing stones and casting judgement upon people why not support people in what ever decision they make for themselves? It's not you who has to live with it.... It's not you who has to pay for it =)

I myself could never have an abortion but I am Pro-Choice and I feel for any woman who is put in a situation to have to make such a horrendous decision =(

[Karri]

I feel like I'm walking into a mine field here, but sometimes I can't help myself.

Mec: I don't know how old you are, or what your religeon is, but you definately sound old enough to have opinions and young enough to lack a certain amount of tact in stating them. You seem to have some rather ingrained christian viewpoints (which is not a bad thing in my eyes) however, as (I believe it was) Lich said, you need to develope some arguements on the non-bible side.

I believe abortion is un-good (to use a fantastic 1984 word). This does not solely come from my religeous beliefs since I thought this way before I became a christian, if anything, my views on abortion since have *matured (I hesitated to use that word, because it isn't what I wanted, but I really can't think of the right word at the moment).
My mother was raped when she was 12. I can't imagine her having to have had a child out of that experience: not only was she too young, but she is still scarred enough from the experience. I strongly believe that that is a good case for abortion in itself.

I did say that I don't agree with it though, so I'd better explain myself. Sometimes it's undesireable, but necessary. (Even the hard fast anti-abortion people on this forum have agreed that if both mother and baby's life were in danger it should be allowed, but I'm curious as to their stance where it's only the mother's life in danger? That's too much of a pot-stirrer question though, so perhaps you should ignore it. ). I honestly don't know what I would do if I ended up with such a high risk pregnancy, the thought of having to make that choice itself is almost an arguement for just adopting children.

As for the rape issue. I found myself practically pulling my hair out at some of Mec's comments. I can overlook some of the inconsistancies between posts: I forget my thoughts from day to day and he did post a lot, so it would have taken a long time to review for each following post. However, the cold-hearted, narrow-minded "lalala I can't hear you" attitude sometimes had me right to the submit-a-post page before I could catch myself and finish the rest of the posts. Giving a baby up for adoption is, for me, the worst possible thing immaginable. (Everyone can argue and I'm not saying that's a normal feeling). What Mec seems to suggest is that the would-be mother should go through nine months of pain to bring the offspring of a deranged man into the word only to send it to an adoption agency. WORST POSSIBLE SOLUTION! (that is obviously just my personal opinion since I personally wrote it) The poor girl/woman has to try to get over the memory of being raped while watching her body become swollen, dealing with morning sickness and get to look forward to the pain of actually bringing a child into the world. As far as I'm concerned, the only time that seems at all appealing is when you have a loving husband (or whatever) beside you to hold your hair back and blame all the upcoming streatch marks on (and of course scream at when you're in pain at the end of it all).

I think the conclusion I've come to on the issue of abortion is that it's (as stated above) undesireable but necessary in some cases, and I do NOT believe it is an appropriate form of birth control. (ie. oops, did it again, better abort this one too)(ps. I appologise for the abruptness of the last, I have class in 5 min.)

[Gaddy]

Politically, I'm a liberal Republican.

I support Bush based on fact that Kerry's no savior. Considering he's the most liberal guy in the senate.

I don't support prayer in schools because to tell you the truth I'm not crazy about organized religion.

I respect homosexuallity. Let them do what they 'wanna' do.

I support abortion most definately. I don't believe a person becomes alive until they are "born into this world." As a fetus they are still a part of the woman. They are not a citizen of any nation. Mec, how is being raped making a wrong considering it was not a decision to begin with? The only reason most people are against abortion is because of their religion. Like you. You're just trying to interpret the constitution to fit your beliefs. Leave it to the judges. Also the many arguments of anti-abortionists here consist of making our population fall. Give me hard evidence that abortion is causing our population to fall. Give hard evidence that our population is even falling. Trust me the last thing we need to worry about is stuffing more people in our nation. The world's population will increase no matter what unless some freak disaster happens. The only way our nation's population would descrease would be because of a political decision causing people to leave.

That's basically everything I think.


I'd add that I dislike how our government works. We might as well abolish the houses and simply ask the head of the Republicans what laws should be passed and what shouldn't (and vise versa when a Democrat is president).
I think that is retarded. I believe the political parties should be abolished, or they should at least be limited in the houses.

It is dumb to have every member of one group vote one way rather than voting with their actual opinions. I understand that they do it so that when they want something passed everyone is on their side, too; however, I don't see that as much of a democracy, it's really just a whole bunch of people in factions allying to get things their way, rather than what the majority of the politicians think is 'best'.

[Penguin]

uhg... to much reading, I've missed way to many post

[Issy]

Only thing i have to say:

Where is your proof and your evidence that justify your accusations?

Opinions are fine and dandy, but when they don't have any justification, they're just a bunch of BS and should not be spoke.

This isn't a bash, its a warning for when you actually get into a real debate and you say "BUSH IS STUPID!" everyone looks at you waiting for a reason why you think that. And you say "Because he allowed america to get attacked!" that is hardly justification. And everyone in that debate will point and laugh at you, no matter of their views on politics.

So this is where I point and laugh......

[Marko_Polo]

Our supreme court is trash, I mean, legalizing gay marriage, that's just gross.

Another problem is that our population is failing.  I blame it on abortion, millions killed each year.  It's gross and evil.

Okay i do believe that the legalizing of gay marriges is a little disturbing, but just don't think about it. Thier does not need to be any more racism. They are people to and I believe that you need to resopect that. Plus, It was they're choice and you don't need to be racist to people that you don't even know that could be the nicest most caring/honest people you have ever met.

And I believe that abortion for raped victims under 16 should be legalized because it wasn't thier fault, just some sickos. And if you are over 16 then well... mostly, you got yourself into it.

Edited by Marko_Polo, 29 July 2004 - 02:46 AM.

[Penguin]

rofl is that a serious post?

[Marko_Polo]

rofl is that a serious post?

I changed it!

[Penguin]

still pretty funny but:

A: The abortion thing is just an endless cycle, murder is wrong, yes it's murder.

B: Opposing gay marriage isn't racist.

[Lich]

Rape does not constitute murdering an innocent person.  If the woman can not support the baby financialy or what-not, adoption.

and a baby having no brain is an extremely odd uncommon off the wall unreasonable argument roflmao

edit: just saw two's post

Yes at the time we did believe he was a threat because he CLAIMED to have a bunch of chemical/biological weapons.  But it isn't like he didn't have time to disantle them and hide them with all the time we spent deliberating.

You have so obviously never in your life so much as met a women who has been raped and discovered they are pregnate. Let me tell you what making her carry a baby for nine full months will do to her as I have not only met one I was related.


The first reaction she will have to it is God no please dont do this to me. Simple reaction because she is still numb from the shock of being forced to do something she didnt want in the first place. You have just added to this the fact that now for nine months she has carry around a constant reminder of what was done to her she is not allowed to heal at all. She can not even attempt to put it behind her for NINE months because as her belly grows so does the memorie of what exactly put it there.

Next reaction She will not want to look at herself in a mirror because she will see her belly growing and again will be forced to remeber, again something she desperatly wants to put behind her.

She will then begin to heard crying in her room cursing the baby and the man that put it there.

She will then try and kill herself and the baby inside her because those feelings are to much for her.

Before you even attempt to say this is a one in a millon case. A poll taken last year of 2000 women who were raped and for what ever reason either couldnt or wouldnt abort only 500 made it to to actually give birth. To me i think that is endangering the life of mother and baby.


DO YOU EVEN WATCH THE NEWS!!!! or are you just being ignorant because you can.

When we even threatned war over WMD he came out and said he had none. The weapons inspectors who went into Iraq to begin with stated 6months before we attacked that there were no weapons in Iraq. The UN's major contrys all said they would not go with us because of those weapon inspector reports. Blair and Bush ignored them saying that they had proof of exactly where they were. (Cnn report posted in november of last year on cnn. com.)

The US wrote the rules of the UN to eclare war. Blair and Bush then ignored those rules and tried to use presures to force the countrys to go with them.

There never were WMD we did not go because we beleived Sadam we went because Bush and blair told us Lies. We accused Germany France and a host of others who said no we would not help of cowerdice and turning on their allys. The whole time they were saying no we do not believe you we believe the UN weapons inspectors and who was right not the US.

..

[Lich]

OK if abortion before the second trimester is murder. So is everytime you get blood drawn.

Before the second trimester it has no brain waves, and no heart beat if you as a human being have no brain waves or heartbeat you are dead. There fore the removing of the cells can not be murder as you can not kill something that is not yet alive.

Even if it is a selfish choice it is the persons choise as is it their body. NOT YOURS if you dont agree with it so be dont do it. But stay the HELL OUT OUR lives and leave everyone else to decide the gate of their bobies.

And since you have no clue what is happening in the world by your own statement since you dont watch the news i will no longer discuss of even read your posts that add no help or info to debate on. You have proven yourself idiotic and a Slave of a book that men claim was wrighten by god. So i will descuss no more.

The Beauty of the USA is a seperation between the church and the state. if you can not find resonable truth to back what you say and present it then i will not hear what you say on politics as, by your words you basing them on a bible and appliying that to politice is not just stupid it is illegal.

I am posting these for a decent disscussion Penguin so you can catch up

[Lich]

Since there was some confusion on what this was i thought i would do a few things to help out the Ignorant people.

Main Entry: ex·trem·ism
Pronunciation: ik-'strE-"mi-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being extreme
2 : advocacy of extreme political measures : RADICALISM
- ex·trem·ist /-mist/ noun or adjective

Above is the dictionary meaning from websters dictionary Notice they say nothing of religion, But made a point of of saying advocacy of extreme political measures : RADICALISM. So since some people are to dense to understand that i will now put examples.


Muslim Extremist;

9-11

The USS cole

MARIVELES, Philippines

Remember that American kidnapping? No? You're in good company. But Abu Sayyaf has kidnapped and even killed other Americans in the Philippines as well.
Before 9/11, Americans tended to slough off overseas terrorist attacks on Americans, our embassies, and even our soldiers, sailors and Marines. Such attacks were merely passing outrages somewhere out there beyond our borders, and indifference allowed our enemy to thrive and grow. With the War on Terror slipping steadily in the polls as an important issue to voters, that is something to think about.

But we spend out time chasing terrorists over seas in other lands. I say we need to get the ones in our own, who do I mean. well now my next examples.

Christian Extremists;

NEW YORK 26 Oct 98 - A sniper shot and killed an abortion doctor at his home outside Buffalo, New York

27 Oct 98 NZ Herald Abortion rights activists said Dr Slepian's name was on an Internet Website list of abortionists underneath a graphic of dripping blood and a heading said a line through a name represented a "fatality." His name was crossed out on Saturday, soon after he was killed.


--Anti-choice activist and convicted murder Paul Hill*, on his double murder of Dr. John Britton and volunteer clinic escort James Barrett. Good Morning, America, 7/94 stated today. "This is against god and there fore all should be removed from this world."

--New Hampshire anti-choice zealot, Andrew Cabot, New Hampshire Sunday News, 1/1/95

"More violence is inevitable, and it is righteous." "It wouldn't bother me if every abortionist in the country today fell dead from a bullet."

--Charles Roy McMillan. Time 3/27/95

The Christian right

I listed more of the christian terrorists than the muslim and here is why of all them I typed the following things.

Muslim extremist attacks in the US. I got 9/11
Muslim attacks against americans. I got a whole load the first two being Cole and the philipenes. it was 4 pages worth pretty inpressive.

christian extremist attacks against Abortion clinics in the US. I got 427 pages.
christian extremist attacks against Gays in the US. I got 1525 pages

Yet we claim that the terrorists we need to worry about are the muslim extremists. Fact Christian extremists in the United states have killed more people in one years time than were killed in the towers or the pentagon on 911. Yet America claims that the Muslim religon is bad, and only produces terrorists, free your mind what do think.

and this one for both topics. please bring more of a debate than mec. Use some kind of logic other than the bible says so. Because that will do nothing but get you flamed as you can see in most the posts on here are flaming mec for just that reason.

[Lady_Maha]

And I believe that abortion for raped victims under 16 should be legalized because it wasn't thier fault, just some sickos. And if you are over 16 then well... mostly, you got yourself into it.

Excuse me, but are you suggesting here that women pas the age of 16 who get raped somehow caused this themselves? This is the most rediculous statement I have ever seen. Draw an age line when a rape victim is allowed to help herself and when not?

[Zylia]

Every single one of you who are saying that Rape is not a reasonable cause for an abortion need to be slapped and have the nuts beat out of you. I'm sorry but there are so many other reasons as to why having a child from a raping is wrong.

I believe it was Maha who pointed out that the trauma that the raped woman goes through. Why do men seem to hold dominating positions in the world? Because, they have the ability to take a woman, degrade her as they like, and in return they cannot retaliate for the most part because they are weak and have always been portrayed as inferior. At least until now.

An unknown assailant rapes a woman in an alley. She's found bruised, bloody and very very disoriented. She goes into the hospital and after the doctor sets her broken bones and her cuts he tells her that she is pregnant. Not only is her body broken and her spirit left broken, she finds out that now she will have to bring a child into the world that will remind her of how she was used every single day of her life. Under Mec's reasoning, its fine. Even if she can't afford it hell, she can let it be adopted. She'll only have to carry it for 9 months, which hey lets round it up to almost a year of her life. Carrying a baby that she didn't want, never will want, and really can't handle. But hey, adoption. Its okay its fine.

Lets roll the camera on to the child.

The child lives in an orphanage til it is about 6-7. He or she has gone to several foster homes, some who are abusive to them. Every day of their life the child begins to wonder why its mom didn't want them. "Where are my parents? What did I do wrong to them where they didn't want me? Will I ever see my parents?" A few more years roll by. The child turns 18 and is an adult and seeks out an investigator to find their real mother.

When a name finally turns up and the child goes to see its mother the mother opens the door to her home and finds an unknown man or woman on their step who claim to be their child. All of the memories of the rape return and when the story of how the child came to be and the child seeking its mother wishes that they never had. They wished that they could've found out that their mother had died in her bed warm at night or been killed in a car accident.

I ask all of you this who are saying that rape isn't a cause for an abortion:

If you were the child in that situation, not having a mother and father who are yours, then years later discovering that your father was an asshole who would violate and degrade a woman. That the woman you call mother didn't even know who it was who raped her. I ask you, how would that make you feel about your life? Kind of like you were, and in fact you actually were, a true and complete mistake. Not a mistake even... you just weren't wanted.

Can you imagine the kind of feelings that would rage through a child that was brought into a world like this?

Another thing. Men - in essence - really shouldn't have a say in this choice. YOU will never ever have to carry a child. You will never have to have a child connected to you. You wont have to go through the sickness and feelings that are experienced through a pregnancy. All you have to do is cause it and walk away. Saying that any man can cause this kind of pain to a woman and walk away freely from it, using a woman as they please and just disappearing with no consequence if they are never arrested or discovered is wrong. Not all rapists are found. I'll find a statistic for you if you really want me to dig it up. Rape is an embarassing thing. I even imagine that not all rapes are reported because the women who are raped are too ashamed to do so.

So unless you are looking from a womans point of view, please please don't through your religious crap at me. I'm an Athiest and I don't want you righteous morons to assist in passing a law that if i was ever to be raped I would be forced to keep or put up for an adoption a child. If I was raped, sorry if you want to call me a murderer, but I wouldn't keep the baby. I would not. And I'm sure plenty of other females on this forum alone wouldn't either. I'm not going to bring a child into the world under those circumstances. I know I wouldn't want to be a child in that situation so I wouldn't dream of putting my own flesh and blood through it.

------end abortion-----
------start gay-marriage----

Are homosexuals not people? Is marriage not granted by the states? To my understanding a 'Marriage License' is issued by the states. Correct me if I am wrong. Marriage License issued by the state. What is marriage? The marriage portion of the license signifies the joining of two individuals. Man = individual... oh look... another man = individual. Hmm.. two living breathing humans who seem to love each other dearly. Now, a married couple will get benefits. Man and woman do receive some benefits from their union. So just because a man loves another man the way a man 'morally' should love another woman, they aren't entitled to the same rights if they were morally correct?

That is denying citizens of the United States the right to being happy. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness right? How come, just because they are a bit different, marriage should be denied to them?

If you want to deny gays and lesbians the right to wed due to religious reasons COMPLAIN TO YOUR CHURCH. Your church shouldn't be wedding these individuals if its against your beliefs anyways. But, just because you believe its wrong, why deny happiness to someone else? Its not your life? If you and your girlfriend or boyfriend wanted to get married and someone said 'no' because someone elses religion, which you dont even follow, how would you react?

My main gripe here is everyone is mixing church and state so badly. There is nothing wrong with two individuals being in love and being together. They don't affect your life directly so let them be happy and stop worrying about what they do with their spare time in the bedroom.

-----end gay-marriage-----

-----start bush-----

I'm not touching this with a 500 foot pole. Enough said.
Though I will add:

So lets send him back


VOTE KERRY 04'

*hides!*

[Mec]

You're serlfish and don't want to go through any dismcomfort. So you kill the baby.

I think that sounds kind of wrong.


Anyway, Kerry is a JOKE.

His speech today?

Kerry seems to think that everything about America is economical!

Bush is doing OK economically. The problem is POVERTY.


Poverty
Poverty:


The cause of poverty?

First of all, sex out of wedlock. This is wrong.

Democrats and planned parenthood or whatever seem to encourage this. This causes poverty. and they're making SHIRTS that say "I had an abortion". Why don't they just say "I murdered an innocent baby".

A single lady is pregnant, her boyfriend leaves her. She has the child, the child is raised by a mother that can hardly support he, he doesn't really get a good enough education so he get's a low-paying job.

Now, to solve this problem, you might say ABORTION.

No.

Wrong answer.

An equation? Wrong + wrong = 2 wrongs. || Wrong + wrong != a right.

[afireinside]

mec so far ive seen you talk about problems you've never dealt with, have you been raped? have you ever been gay? dont go off acting like a great profit, preaching about things that you really have not one clue about. a child must be born of love, is rape love? what if the child wants to know about its dad, the mom say "i was raped, you father is a serial killer.". that child is not going to have a good life, and with abortion the kid isnt even alive yet, people eat chicken eggs dont they? are those chickens alive? no, and they never would because they never hatched. and another thing, put yourself in other peoples shoes, what if you lived in a world where straight people got abused their whole childhood, and then after that they cant go anywhere in public with the person they love because you happen to be different, then on top of that you cant get married to the one you love. did you know that if a gay person is injured their loved one cannot see them because they arent on life insurance? gay people have never done anything to anyone, how can you be so selfish?

Edited by afireinside, 30 July 2004 - 05:24 AM.

[Stotic]

First of all, sex out of wedlock. This is wrong.

No, it's not wrong. This is just more proof that you are speaking out of the bible and not in today's realistic world. You've seemed to ignore what anyone in this thread has stated.

Why don't they just say "I murdered an innocent baby".

Last time I checked babies go wah wah, not ...well whatever the fetus does.

[Lady_Maha]

You're serlfish and don't want to go through any dismcomfort.  So you kill the baby.

I think that sounds kind of wrong.

Did you moron even read her post? She also gave you darn good "non-selfish" reasons. Besides, a lump of cells is NOT a baby yet, I mentioned so many of times. Can you not read in your religious fanatic stupor?

Bush is doing OK economically.  The problem is POVERTY.

You just pulled a baby bush here. Economy and poverty are tightly connected. Good economy=employment=more money for workers=less poverty, so how can you say you want to fight poverty without fixing the economy? Are you going to pay for your contry's deficits out of your own pocket?

Poverty
Poverty:


The cause of poverty?

First of all, sex out of wedlock.  This is wrong.

Ever heard of condoms? They are those little rubber things that prevent you from aquiring STDs and those lil spermy thingies that get women pregnant. So sex out of wedlock has nothing to do with poverty, since not every sexual intercourse gets you pregnant. Besides, I know many women who are perfectly capable of raising a child on their own, because unlike common belief, some of us DO have a decent education and ability to own a decent income. Or is any of what I mentioned against your religion too and should therefor be outlawed? Get a grip.

I don't know what kind of fanatic group you belong to, but I'm scared of people like you that become voting age. You are not using your own brain, instead you are preaching down whoat you are told in your church.

Now to finish this off: Stop calling people who have an abortion murderers. By law they are not, they stopped life from coming into existence, but never actually "killed an innocent baby" as you so nicely worded it. it is nothing but a lump of cells in that time. I don't go around calling all men potential rapists either, do I? You are the only selfish person here, trying to force your religious points of view on everyone without any real arguments.

[Gaddy]

still pretty funny but:

A: The abortion thing is just an endless cycle, murder is wrong, yes it's murder.

B: Opposing gay marriage isn't racist.

Although I think the post you replied to with that was pretty idiotic (especially saying it is someone's fault if they are raped while over the age of 16, that is simply dumb...rape is rape.)

As for point A, no, by our government's laws, it is not murder. If it were murder it would be very illegal. We don't consider a ball of cells in a mothers belly a person, because it has not developed. By the time it has developed enough to really be a person, abortion is not legal.
How is abortion an endless cycle? Seems like a rather fast ending thing to me. An endless cycle is reproduction and the offspring reproducing...abortion is kind of a cut on that cycle more than a separate one.

As for point B, no, it isn't racist. It is predjudice(sp?) though. Racist and predjudice are close enough to the same thing. Hating someone for who they are or what group you put them in is unfair and wrong.


I suppose these are just my opinions and the facts as I know them.

[Shera]

You're serlfish and don't want to go through any dismcomfort.  So you kill the baby.

I think that sounds kind of wrong.

Well Mec I happen to think what you are saying is wrong. Zylia never said that she would have an abortion to escape the discomfort, I have NO idea how you got that from her very well thought out post. She was talking about rape and abortion.

Which in case you didnt know Mec rape is not about sex. If a man really wants sex badly they can go to a hooker. Rape is about violence (if you'd like I can get you stats on this or point you to some books with what I'm talking about in it) Rapists rape because they either want to hurt the woman or because they get off on hurting people and having someone at their mercy.

Have you thought about the whole Nature VS Nurture argument the way it pertains to the issue of rape and abortion? I'm guessing not so I'll spell it out for you. There is scientific evidence (again if you want proof I'm sure I could find some for you) to both sides of the Nature VS Nurture thing. On the Nature side you have genetics, which as you probably know decides all of our physical charateristics. Some scientists believe that who we are, is determined by our genetics, just genetics. They usually use the twins that have been raised apart but then go onto be totally alike in their lives (ie: the ppl they marry, the careers they chose, stuff like that) to help argue their point of view. Then you have the Nurture side of this. The scientists that go with the nurture side of things believe that who we are is shaped by how we are raised and outside influences or us basically. (In other words no genetic things) I dont know if I could bring a child of a rape into the world because I believe the the truth of the Nature VS Nurture arguement lies somewhere in the middle. That genetics and nurturing help shape us into who we are. I'm not saying that a child of rape would become a rapist, what I am saying is that statistically they would have a greater chance of becoming one then someone whose father was just an average guy. In a way what you are advocating might, and I for one do NOT believe that it is a good risk to take, make for more rapists in the world. I for one would not want that on my conscience which is one reason I am pro-choice.

Now if you really wish to the go into the economic costs that rape and rapists cost our country, I could go there with you but for the most part it would be rather boring to most ppl so I will refrain from doing so at this time unless you wish me to go there and I will.

Mec for the rest of it Maha said what I wanted to say so just READ her post.

Oh and the argument that rape has an age limit attached to it is just ignorant. Little old ladies get raped too, it's not their fault, anymore then it is ANYONE elses fault if they are raped, man or woman. Because men can get raped too.

Edited by Shera, 30 July 2004 - 05:48 PM.

[Mec]

Condoms just don't seem to work, do they.


No:

According to me, sex out of wedlock is like rape:

If someone becomes pregnant, and the boyfriend leaves, that's exactly the same as rape. SOMETHING should at least try to hold together the family.


Now about gay marriage.

Why do we put murderers in jail, I mean, murderers are people too, and should be treated with more respect.

No.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of 'preaching out of the bible', lets turn this into a theological debate too!


The key word is MORALITY:

It is just wrong to leave someone with child and walk off.
This is why people should be married before they do.

Eliminating this problem would eliminate more than half the abortions, and much poverty.

and democrats ENCOURAGE behavior like this.

[afireinside]

you are completly irrational, first off you are comparing murderers to gay people, um, are you that thick headed? murderers killllll people, gay people, lets see what do they do......nothing. second, how is sex beofre marriage rape, rape is when one person forces the other to have sex with them. you're just a simple child trying to act like you are wise, not gunna happen.

[Lich]

Slams the pacifier back in mecs mouth. SHUT UP ALREADY .. .. You are one of three if not all of the things Im about to say.


One you are a child who has never known, met or seen a women a who has been raped. You have no clue about what it is like to be raped. None what so ever.


Two you are a Bible fanatic lesson one. we are not all christian the world is not wrapped in a tiny little package of a book. Hell that book alone contradicts half of everything you have said in this post.

So as of right now im going to ask everyone to ignore Mecs childish attemps at debate. He is a moron and nothing more. You will get no debate nor will you get any sence in him. He is a fanaic read my last quoted post for a definition.

As for morality I dont believe it is morally right to sit on a forum and tell people that they are not right with god. Because of two reasons one you are not god or my goddess therefore you have no right what so ever to speak for them.

Next you arent even talking from the bible since the bible doesn't speak of abortion as it didnt exist when men wrote the damn thing and claimed yes i said CLAIMED that it was a bok wrighten by god. Untill the day god himself steps out of heaven taps me on the shoulder and says hey it is my word STFU you are a child and nothing more.

To the rest of you please ignore him and lets have a decent political talk with out religion as politics and religon are illegal to mix. if anyone wants a true deba i will even be nice enough to take mecs side and you keep mine and we will actually debate facts and no religos rederic.

[Mec]

I compared gay people to murderers because you are saying that certain people that do things that people believe is wrong are treated like criminals.


People can't help getting raped.

Oops.

So they kill something.

I've hardly even mentioned the bible or anything.


Well, sex before marriage is not exactly rape, no, but it's WRONG for people to get someone with child, and then LEAVE them, it's slightly similar.

And anyway.

He is a moron and nothing more.

You are a moron and nothing more. Only a so-called 'moron' would support baby-killers.

Hell that book alone contradicts half of everything you have said in this post.

Umm, nope.

Untill the day god himself steps out of heaven taps me on the shoulder and says hey it is my word STFU you are a child and nothing more.

In response to that:

Article I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...(blah blah)..or abridging the freedom of speech

In other words, I don't HAVE to 'stfu'.

Your post shows strong emotion....

What is cold and blunt about your posts is that they only emotion they contain is anger... and if you resort to caps because you believe that will get your message across, no wonder you are failing to convince me with your arguements.
Blunt? You argue the same things over and over again, with very little deviation, and with very little to back you up other than what you happen to say.

Can two people of the same gender have a baby? Nope, it wasn't meant to be that way. People shouldn't do it then.

Then people are killing babies.

You still haven't explained to me why I should have to pay for your selfish little reasons about why I should have to suffer for your stupid doggone killing baby decisions.

So, instead of answering a question you know you can't answer, you go and call me a 'baby' and ask people to ignore my sense. Nice tactics there!


In the next one of your very very smart and sensible posts, tell me, what makes murder wrong? What makes rape wrong?

This might be very obvious to you, I'd just like the facts once and for all, since your all-knowing and smart.

[Mec]

Oh.. just thought of this.

Since I haven't been raped, or haven't been gay (which I'm very proud of), have any of you had an abortion? How do you know what it's like? If not just

stfu

Tell me, would you rather be dead, or miserable.


In the case of rape, how will killing the baby make things better? You probably will still will feel a sense of guilt throughout the rest of your life. What prevents the baby from having a decent life if he's put up for adoption? I know somebody adopted that is fine, thank you.

I wouldn't want to be dead.
I would rather be miserable.

Anyway, it's your turn to suck on this paccifier.