76 replies to this topic

[Freek]

For starters nightshades =/= balance.

You act as thieves don't end up getting 8 stam, aren't piss easy to train, dont go through armor, cant run covert forever and don't do all there damage instantly. Also, if you think a 35 mage beams other 35's for 70's you are sadly mistaken. Not to mention the fact that there are so many ways for a beam to get nullified. Can get resisted/counterspelled/fizzled/absorbed and half resisted. One of those happens in almost 85% of full rounds.

Either way 7 stam mage at 40 is only going to be able to round maybe lings (when a beam doesn't fail). The fact is that mages are the most gold consuming, effort taking class to level and they have lost what made them worth training. If mages are not going to continue to be the glass cannons they were when it came down to PvP they need to be made less of a headache to train. Whats the benefits of training a mage when you can stick 1 item on a zerk do 5x the damage and pocket all the gold you make?


Again, mages have lost the Glass Cannon feel and are now more glass than cannon. They are the ONLY class reliant on both hp and mp, they scale worse than any other class in the game, the bring nothing to parties outside of an occasional invis (that cost 1/10 of the mages bar) and are the most gimped when it comes to training.

Edited by Freek, 18 July 2011 - 04:14 PM.

[Dangerous]

What Jordan said Q.Q, piddy talk nutse

[Cruxis]

I thought we were mostly talking about mages training and party issues more so than PvP aspect of them.

I think they're fine PvP really, though atleast shouldn't have so many ways to have their beam damage nulled. I remember when you'd never see a lvl 30 mage fizzle, and a resist was rare, double gains somehow killed that. Though maybe needing 7 full beams instead of just 5 itself did.

[Stig]

Try to keep this conversation civil chaps - there is some interesting discussion on Mages here and their issues post-30.

[Apocalypto]

Off topic as hell but I agree staff should look in to dropping thief and zerk stamina... but to be on topic, the point isn't that mages are useless.... it is that for what they are capable of in comparison the should either be somewhat easier to train, or slightly better pvp... only because when several lvl 40s are ingame they will be a pretty weak compared to much easier to train classes... in turn killing the games diversity....

Edited by Apocalypto, 19 July 2011 - 12:33 PM.

[Dangerous]

I can tell you this for a FACT, Chaos will remain lvl 37 because;

PvP - He sucks (i even use int mods and it still dosen't help) all the resists and fizzles it's just weird for a lvl 37, i see you all talking about high lvl mages but you haven't actually used one to comment, i'm telling you ppl they are BROKEN mechanics wise.

PvM - I honestly can't remember the last time i used a mage at a boss or even in party to train, it just makes no sense what so ever.

Training - Hedge Maze is the only real profitable place to mage train, the exp sucks but the gold is good, the only main problem with that is everyone and their dog is gonna pass through it to check/kill HL at some stage so it leaves you vulnerable. Dessy, you need a ranger for hypno's, the profit.. there is no profit not on a big scale. The main thing is the BOREDOM people, mage training is a solo job. With other classes you can go kill a boss or train in zeum, with mages you can't <----- This is what needs fixed most imo.

[Freek]

I can tell you this for a FACT, Chaos will remain lvl 37 because;

PvP - He sucks (i even use int mods and it still dosen't help) all the resists and fizzles it's just weird for a lvl 37, i see you all talking about high lvl mages but you haven't actually used one to comment, i'm telling you ppl they are BROKEN mechanics wise.

PvM - I honestly can't remember the last time i used a mage at a boss or even in party to train, it just makes no sense what so ever.

Training - Hedge Maze is the only real profitable place to mage train, the exp sucks but the gold is good, the only main problem with that is everyone and their dog is gonna pass through it to check/kill HL at some stage so it leaves you vulnerable. Dessy, you need a ranger for hypno's, the profit.. there is no profit not on a big scale. The main thing is the BOREDOM people, mage training is a solo job. With other classes you can go kill a boss or train in zeum, with mages you can't <----- This is what needs fixed most imo.

I agree with this.

After much discussion their are only two things that seem to really bother me about mages.

1.) How difficult it is to get a full round off. I'm not saying I want it to be guarented 100% full rounds but hell you only get a full 7 stam round off 20% of the time (and thats being generous). Not to mention you can already wis/absorb stack vs a mage and drop his damage a lot.

2.) The only way to train a mage is to solo. If you try to group you are gimping the group by mana whoring and if you train solo you have to stick close to town or you will spend more time running back and forth than you actually do training.


There should be less things that make mages fail during rounds.

There should be something that allows for mages to not be complete mana #####s when it comes to training. Solo and in group

[Tietsu]

Give mages a bigger inventory or sub-inventories. Might cost alot to train, but atleast you wouldn't need to leave your training mates to get more. Would make them less boring and give them the option of being with others when they train.

[Autek]

There should be something that allows for mages to not be complete mana #####s when it comes to training. Solo and in group[/b]

/a . . .

Lol J/K . . . I agree with what's been said, mages are the fail.

[Stig]

Just to ask a question... how do Mages perform in and around Cinderforge Mine for you guys?

[Apocalypto]

I also agree with the issue's about the party. It probably wouldnt be hard to add a spell the same as beam with a much less mana use that can only be used on mobs..

[Freek]

Just to ask a question... how do Mages perform in and around Cinderforge Mine for you guys?

I haven't VG'd every square if thats what your asking .

As far as damage goes, they seem to do well on the Hornets other than that though I haven't really tried. Run into the same problem, almost everything deep in the mines is non-soloable and mages just dont fit in the groups.

[Autek]

now as for a nifty turn i would promote, say, a spell that costs 200 mana ish and lets a mage teleport to a specific mana shop
(prolly should be made a non exit area to not promote instant travel to anywhere. like if th mages guild vg square had mana lol) and then also a recall spell that costs 200 ish aswell(ofc it could only work on the mage not a party for obvious reasons)

That's an interesting idea, and the fact that a mage could go back and forth repeatedly to refill a party's mana (at a premium because of the 400 mana it takes per trip) might make them useful for a party staying say, on the second floor of the Museum where you make plenty of gold to stay up there. Not sure that the the gold spent on mana would justify not just killing the mayor/mummy again, but it might to some people.

[Freek]

wierd chaos seems to round me everytime im not holding pot macroes.

mage: but yes beaming bears for 115 doesnt give me enough exp
other classes (non zerk and druid): im full spelled and cant even hit 115

now as for a nifty turn i would promote, say, a spell that costs 200 mana ish and lets a mage teleport to a specific mana shop
(prolly should be made a non exit area to not promote instant travel to anywhere. like if th mages guild vg square had mana lol) and then also a recall spell that costs 200 ish aswell(ofc it could only work on the mage not a party for obvious reasons)

Pretty sure Ranger and Fighter can hit 115 on a bear. Also thats like saying "mages can 1 stam small snakes always, they must be op". How about every other monster in the game.

And I've toyed around with a VG type spell that sent the mage to a shop/pub etc and back. I really liked the idea just always seemed to easy to abuse.

[Apocalypto]

Not only easy to abuse, but i dont see how it would be possible. If your in the middle of nowhere and teleport to a shop, it wouldnt be near as easy to code a return to the square you were on rather than a specific square... maybe it would be easier than i think, but it seems kind of challenging.. Would probably be much easier to add a high BD weapon with redic mana leech or a spell similar to beam lower in mana cost that is only able to be used on mobs...

[PureMourning]

Not only easy to abuse, but i dont see how it would be possible. If your in the middle of nowhere and teleport to a shop, it wouldnt be near as easy to code a return to the square you were on rather than a specific square... maybe it would be easier than i think, but it seems kind of challenging.. Would probably be much easier to add a high BD weapon with redic mana leech or a spell similar to beam lower in mana cost that is only able to be used on mobs...

I wanted to point out quickly- the programming of such code would be trivial. Of course, I haven't seen the source but based on general programming concepts... it wouldn't be hard. Programming is all about very specific, sequential directions read by the computer, so the pseudo-code would go something like this:

- Upon casting, read the player's current grid index
- Store this number in a temp variable
- Execute teleport to hard-coded grid number
- Once player commences teleporting back, grab index from temp variable

I do have some ideas that have been brewing as I've been following this thread, but I'll wait until I formulate them into a logical, worth-while response, instead of just rambling off the high concept now.

[Sausage]

Mages are fine pvp. I'm sick of that whining.

Please only address concerns of obscene mana whoring during training.

[Gnarkill]

I didn't read all the posts so forgive me if this has been discussed.

I would think even something like a tweaked version of the /tribute option for pacis on multi would be decent for mages on 1a.

/tribute

An ability rather than a spell, activated by typing /tribute ##, where ## is either an item or a quantity of gold. A tribute allows a Pacifist to offer something to their deity to gain a mana boost, at a rate of 6 mana for an item (regardless of what it is) or 1 mana for every 5 gold. As long as a steady income of gold is available, this ability, coupled with Create Food and Create Water, allows a Pacifist to remain in the field for virtually limitless periods of time.

Edited by Gnarkill, 20 July 2011 - 11:22 PM.

[Freek]

After playing around more on the mage today I noticed that they nerfed thieves as far as pentrating armor. This being the case I don't think mages need any real buff in PvP except maybe later on, but won't know that till 40.

However they still need something to make them more sustainable (in mana mainly) while training/grouping.

[Cruxis]

Lvl 35 spell, same damage as beam, 5 mana?

Maybe even lvl 34?

Gogogo

[Dangerous]

You raise your hands casting Drain on an Black Bear killing it.
As the Black Bear withers away to nothing you leech 5mp and 5hp.

[Eternyte]

"Blah, Blah, Blah....mages, level 35 spell, Blah, Blah, Blah....mages, level 40 spell"

NO!!!....plain and simple.

The overarching point to this entire post is mages sustainability i.e. moving away from town. This is provided to other classes mainly in the way of a Cobalt Staff of the Winds, a level 25 item.

Mages need a HP/MP returning spell that costs 10mil and is usable at level 25 and it scales up with intell/level. This can be done as follows:
1. A single stamina spell that costs no mana to cast and deals the same damage as Beam but then returns 30% of the damage done as HP. This spell would render Beam useless vs monsters, but I don't see a problem with that.
2. A single stamina spell that costs no mana to cast and deals the same damage as Beam but returns 30% of the damage done as MP. Once again Beam would become a forgotten spell.
3. A maximum stamina use spell that costs no mana to cast and returns the mage's full MP bar, this renders the mage stamina-less for 40 seconds (or whatever time frame the staff's chicken bones or tea-leaves decide on)

If spell 1/2 or maybe even both spells were introduced I would like to see Beam scale up more with intell/level and increase the mana cost making it a purely PvP spell.

Additionally:

Dispell: change the spell so it removes the enhancing buffs from all players on a square, and unable to be re-casted upon for 10 seconds. As it stands the spell is not used and remains a hidden spell on my list. Maybe even have it reduce a character/squares magical resistance to a negative figure. So a mage can actually hurt stupid creatures like a berserker.

Haste/Armor/Invis: Make these spell durations longer; as a master of magic it upsets me to know that my spells don't last as long as a clumsy druid or cleric. Infact make haste regain full stamina.

Vortex Gate: what a waste of a potentially epic spell. Make more places able to use Vortex Gate.
Also...

Make the spell an advanced Vortex Gate (Apparate). It would be a level 29/30 spell, would cost say 1/2mil from the shop accessed by Vortex Gate from Tiggy's Magic shop or a Vortex Gate from the Level 30 Mage Guild to another specialised shop.

It would only be castable for the mage + 1 member of the mages party if there is more than 1 member in the party the mage would get the message "You do not have the energy to apparate so many people", and only castable from a cities tavern. You have 10 sets for the 'Apparition', and each set can only be made from a tavern that the mage has actually visited, and must be set whilst in the tavern.

For example: This could be a typical setup
/apparateset 0 (Nightmist)
/apparateset 1 (Arilin)
/apparateset 2 (Blackthorn)
/apparateset 3 (Sarka)
/apparateset 4 (Silver Sail)
/apparateset 5 (Kantele)
/apparateset 6 (Harabec)
/apparateset 7 (Dendeya)
/apparateset 8 (Windia)
/apparateset 9 (Clan House, must be a member of that clan as must the other person if used with +1 party member)

Then to 'Apparate' from one city to the other. /cast apparate/0-9

Other crap...

1. Dispell
You cast Dispell upon yourself removing all magic from the vicinity. Don't really like the ideas for Dispell so far, so, as a 4 stam usage square buff remover i.e. You use 4 stamina to cast the spell, and all buffs from every char/camou/invis (not covert as it's not magic) etc etc are totally removed in the square that it is casted within. Costs 100mp to cast and is available at level 27.
Spell can only be casted upon self.

2. Detect
Don't really like the idea of revealing a whole square through vision that should be reserved for clerics, however, would like to see a 2 stam spell, costs 50mp and last for 2 mins that warns you if something walks onto your square invis/camou/covert. i.e. You cast Detect upon yourself. You sense the presence of another being nearby. Bought at level 28.
Spell can only be casted upon self.

3. Vamparic Touch
You cast Vamparic Touch upon a Bunny stealing its life aura for 40 points of damage. Basically a hp robbing spell that does 40 damage returned to the caster as hp at a cost of 10mp, bought at level 26. Would enable mages to stay away from town for slightly longer than they can now.

4. Concentrate
You cast Concentrate upon yourself placing you into a deep trance. Uses all your stamina with no stamina regain for 60 seconds, but in that time you recharge all your mp. Costs 20mp and 50hp to cast (can suicide if mage is below 50hp). Available at level 30.

5. Ressurect Dead
You cast Resurrect Dead upon yourself returning the last departed soul. 5 stamina cast and 200mp it would return the last character to die back to the square. Stamina cost is to ensure that a pker cannot use the spell to constantly pk one character. Available at level 32.

6. Revive
You cast Revive upon JLH returning him to full strength. 5 stamina to cast and 50mp. You simply transfer your full stamina to become their full stamina thus leaving yourself weak and defenseless. Especially good if someone is dying to be healed and a cleric has just used all thier stamina. Available at level 29.

7. Soul Drain I had to put one offensive spell in there
You cast Soul Drain upon JLH. JLH"You feel your life force escaping your body." Does no initial damage however, every 10 seconds the spell removes 100hp from the player it is casted on and lasts for 30 seconds (300 damage in total, cleanse/dispell does counteract it). Available at level 36. Costs 3 stamina and 50mp to cast, the mage can continue to cast attacking spells in addition. This would make a level 36+ mage powerful, but rightly so in my opinion.

I could come up with spells all day, but those are enough to go on with. You should notice that a lot of the spells are for higher levels because mages get nothing really after Beam/AoP. There should be an offensive spell for level 34+ that does massive damage to monsters only (since players will whine about pvp), since beam is pretty pathetic for a master of magic to be casting.

Summary....
Reduce mana costs/increase mana regain
Make spells like haste/armor/invis last longer

Also, someone posted somewhere about going to a shop to buy mana as a vortex spell, this is a bad idea for several reasons but the code is already in place. It's the same function that /mosh enter, teleports you to a grid reference, and /mosh exit, teleports you back to the square you sent the command on.

[Eternyte]

Change of mind/More detail inputted.....

Level 25 item - Tome of Advanced Magic, costs 10mil from idk....the Drow Bazaar.

/give Sinon Tome of Advanced Magic

"I thought this relic to have been lost forever, I have only heard stories of such an item from my mentor Bishop DragonTongue. This item was created by the Mage Ewin, after his epic battle with Norinth he decided to record all his knowledge, for if Norinth ever arose again the power would live on to defeat him. I can only assume that Australis took this item deep into Mt. Melior after the passing of Borealis for safe keeping."

"As part of Ewin's teachings I am able to present you with these tokens of appreciation. Use them well."

Sinon gives you a Scroll of Vamparic Touch, a Scroll of Regeneration and a Scroll of Apparate.

Scroll of Vamparic Touch - Scribed at level 25
5mp to cast, hp returned is affected by intell and level. i.e. a level 25 would regain less hp than a level 35.
Damage is equivilent to that of Flame.
You mumble something and raise your hand, creating a vamparic aura, weakening a Hedge Minion for 39 points of damage.

Scroll of Regeneration - Scribed at level 28
5hp to cast, mp regained is affected by intell and level i.e. a level 28 would regain less mp than a lvl 35.
This spell does not damage a player/monster.
You cast Regeneration upon yourself restoring your mana by 70 mana points and reducing your health by 5hp.

Scroll of Apparate - Scribed at level 34
50mp and 2 stamina to cast.
At level 34 you would have 3 spots too which you can apparate, at level 35 (4 spots), level 36 (5 spots), level 37 (6 spots), level 38 (7 spots), level 39 (8 spots) and level 40 (9 spots)
***Edit*** Having initially posted about apparating anywhere on the map I've thought about it and changed my mind to taverns/pubs only. Mainly because of training spots/boss checking/apparating into areas requiring keys/tokens and party killing at bosses etc. Although a Grid Stat of 0/1 to allow/deny apparating could work it would require too much work.***
Can only be castable upon the mage (possibly mage + 1)

The reason behind the mp/hp spells were that concentrate (the all stamina use mp regain, with a 40 second movement penalty) would only be good if a mage could kill a monster by only using his mp bar. If this was not possible then the mage would still rattle through mana like it was going out of fashion. This would be unfeasible during a pvp battle. However, with a spell returning mp, this would allow a mage to prioritise whether he needed mp/hp/armor or if to damage a monster.
During PvP Regenerate would return the mages mana, but would not damage his opponent whilst reducing the mages hp, additionally the mage would be using valuable stamina to facilitate this thus giving mana leech weapons a greater viability for druids/paladins in the PvP arena.

As stated above....Haste/Armor/Invis spells need to last a lot LOT longer, they are a great drain upon a mage's mana pool. Also change Dispell so it de-buffs an entire square and buffs cannot be recasted for 10 seconds.

Edited by Eternyte, 04 August 2011 - 04:09 PM.

[Courage]

What if you increased the MP regeneration that the mage already receives? every 30 seconds or so your mage gains 1hp and 1mp.. what if every lvl the mp was raised by 1 point each level. that way when they get to lvl 30+ they gain back 40mp every 30 seconds or if that is to much then gain 1 point every same 3 levels? or so. Just my thought.

[Gnarkill]

What if you increased the MP regeneration that the mage already receives? every 30 seconds or so your mage gains 1hp and 1mp.. what if every lvl the mp was raised by 1 point each level. that way when they get to lvl 30+ they gain back 40mp every 30 seconds or if that is to much then gain 1 point every same 3 levels? or so. Just my thought.

Hmm bumpage of a way old topic.. you must have just bought or trained a mage

[Woodstock]

Well, it deserves another bump. some kind of PvM spell... or /tribute-like system... or a huge damage buff... or a mana cost nerf... Something.

[Woodstock]

im not arguing that...


Its the inability to go bossing or leave town very far. Of course you can sit in hedge maze or lost trail all day long. Thats fun?

I dont care for, or expect, a pvp change or dmg buff, but cmon, anything else can help.

[Woodstock]

or we can make cobalt affect spell dmg too, and suck back like .2 health and .1 mana instead of .3 health. problems solved all around.

edit: the way vamp pot affects spell dmg.

Edited by Woodstock, 16 February 2012 - 11:44 PM.

[Woodstock]

bump for mage love

Also to gareth/Stig:

Wisdom is just a stat in game. To screw up the already-hard-to-balance damage side of things, you insist that certain mobs need a good amount of wisdom based on their lore, like its some kind of real life virtue. Just cave in and fix the limitation stopping mages from doing really, ANY NEW CONTENT. Stop giving mobs wisdom of that above anything a player would have. You brought up the point of it not being realistic if they werent 'wise'. Really? Nightmist is 'Realistic'? Im a bit peeved at your reasoning as to why you left mobs nearly unkillable by mages.

I am sure i made a post all about what was wrong with mages over 5 years ago but i cant find it. I have seen alot of the nifty changes made to other classes in the elusive balancing act, yet mages have been largely ignored, other than giving magic absorb to other classes (that really fixed mages eh?). This thread sums up the real issues involving mages and anything outside of PvP, and since this game is as far from PvP as ive ever seen it, why dont you give some love to the mages?

is there just not enough feedback on this? would you like some volunteers to tinker with in some testing? Im just having a hard time wrapping my mind around this being ignored this long as compared to how quickly and strangely other things have been dealt with.

To sum it ALL up:
reduce MP cost, make mage-only mana crystals or potions, tweak the spells with a leech of some kind for 10m gold for similar self sustainability, and reduce some monsters wisdom. Not all need implementing, but 1 or 2 would go a long way in making them sustainable in groups on 1a.

edit: rereading, and it sounded kind of whiny.. sorry, but it was not intended, yet im not changing it because i feel it gets the point i was trying to make across.

Edited by Woodstock, 27 February 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[Cruxis]

Renamed Beam (something think of a cool name!!)
Less mana cost (5-7 mana)
Higher level req (33-35, higher the level req, less mana cost)

Incase it's not obvious enough, Renamed Beam means the same damage formula, keeping them the same PvP while letting them last more PvM.

Though, I'd rather regeneration over time be looked at (more similar to other games where you can sit for 3 minutes, train for 1, instead of buying consumables). I believe that'd be the way to go.

Many things would work, and many have been presented by players. I hope one of them is on the to-do list. I figure a renamed spell with a couple easy changes (mana cost and level req) would be the easiest, and fastest fix.