53 replies to this topic

[Tietsu]

I also left out Berserkers. They do extremely high damage, but they have every right to. PvP, they may hit 1/5 times if someone hasn't DEX'd completely out. I would leave them the way they are. It makes more sense to me that a Zerker be able to click someone 1/5 of the time than an Assassin click someone 4/5 of the time.

[Omnipotence]

You have a cobalt on 1a, I am sure 95% of this game has had a cobalt on main so its not like they have not experimented on their own. Most classes become extremely more powerful after using them but that doesnt mean the class needs to be nerfed, if anything it means the cobalt needs to be nerfed (which I do not beleive).

THIS IS AN OPEN CHALLENGE TO STAFF TO GO TO THE DRUID GUILD ENTRANCE SOUTH OF BLACKTHORN AND TRY TO ENTER. OHHH LOOK ITS KTP. NOW GO TO THE THIEVES ENTERANCE OUTSIDE OF ARLIN, OH LOOK ITS NOT KTP. WONDER WHY? OHH YEA NOW THIEVES NEVER HAVE TO KILL A KTP GETTING TO ARLIN.

[Gaddy]

1. Eliminate the roller, but don't allow characters to be improved too much as far as stats go. Make it so that equipment has more of an effect on stat-emphasis. Stats starting depending on class AND race.

2. Alter the way characters are leveled. Stop showing exact experience, though perhaps keep the experience bar, so long as it is kept vague.

3. Perhaps the most important- Provide incentive for players to bring new players, based on those new players actually sticking around and playing. Also provide incentive for helping lower level players level, learn, etc.

4. Completely get rid of account sharing and multi-logging, if possible.



Note- I do not feel these should be done to the current server. These are all just my opinions of what would be good to do if the 1-Alt server was re-built. I don't have any idea how the current 1-Alt server can be importantly changed in a fair way.

[Throwback]

I believe the druid discussion is inaccurate, I never got the opportunity to use a Cobalt on Memphis, but I can say that although you can stack your armor spells, only one lasts the length of your morph, stoneform and thornshield wear off fairly quickly. As for the mana cost for Gaea's and morph, I believe it's half your hp = your mana cost, so that if you have 400hp it's 200 mp to morph and Gaea's is like 75mp im not sure. Anyways when you morph, you lose your ability to camo, nourish, (forage?). And you don't see any significant bonus in the damage you do (unless of course you have the weapon Emma which i did rounds of 40,000 damage /roll eyes). The monsters Alec mention Bandit leader especially, if the druid is elf, it gets a forest bonus of 5-10% something like that on attacks, so of course he'd do phenomenal rounds, the power of nature makes his druid stronger thus enabling harder hits.


And onto the Pally discussion, I attempted to level a pally, it's almost red for 32 but ran out of freetime. I think it would balance out with thieves as it's lvl and experience grow. However a maximum armor count of 112 i believe, can be achieved by a pally, thats with 4 ac rings, 1 ac bracelets, hades, vindis. This added with the "fake dex" just doesnt give a lvl 31 pally much of a chance against any character higher lvl than it. I always use this example for how weak pallies are. I did a 5/5 round on a lvl 34 dwarf thief (maximum ac of around 84ish) and did 12 damage. 4 full absorbs, one hit for 12. Then with my Holy Speed on, I got clicked. So 27 dex vs 19 to 20ish dex i got clicked. A lot has to be said for the level difference but I was speechless at the performance I had just made.


As for the rest of the changes, good luck, I don't know much about those ideas, simply because I skimmed through this thread, but I also don't have the time to think about things I don't have the time to investigate myself. Good Day.

[shomer]

I believe the druid discussion is inaccurate, I never got the opportunity to use a Cobalt on Memphis, but I can say that although you can stack your armor spells, only one lasts the length of your morph, stoneform and thornshield wear off fairly quickly. As for the mana cost for Gaea's and morph, I believe it's half your hp = your mana cost, so that if you have 400hp it's 200 mp to morph and Gaea's is like 75mp im not sure. Anyways when you morph, you lose your ability to camo, nourish, (forage?). And you don't see any significant bonus in the damage you do (unless of course you have the weapon Emma which i did rounds of 40,000 damage /roll eyes). The monsters Alec mention Bandit leader especially, if the druid is elf, it gets a forest bonus of 5-10% something like that on attacks, so of course he'd do phenomenal rounds, the power of nature makes his druid stronger thus enabling harder hits.

not sure if it's the same on 1a, but gaea's is 30mp and morph is 100mp regardless of level

[Dublin]

I agree with all of gaddys post.

Also, Jay's right about the mana on a druid. Only thing that changes is how much HP you get back when you morph at higher levels.

[Momba]

3. Perhaps the most important- Provide incentive for players to bring new players, based on those new players actually sticking around and playing. Also provide incentive for helping lower level players level, learn, etc.

Your to detail oriented not to have thought of exactly how something like this will work. And this could be one of the single biggest fixes/improvements Nightmist needs. We need new blood and we need a way for old players to welcome them.

How would this work?

[Raylen]

a lvl 31 pally much of a chance against ... a lvl 34 dwarf thief (maximum ac of around 84ish)

It's funny that this is one of the ways that "level 30" is still ingrained in people's minds. You probably wouldn't expect anything from a lvl 27 pally against a lvl 30 anything with full armor. Don't worry though, I think the same way. I wonder why my lvl 32 mage cannot round Gareth's lvl 39 pally. I mean, wtf am I on?

Your to detail oriented not to have thought of exactly how something like this will work. And this could be one of the single biggest fixes/improvements Nightmist needs. We need new blood and we need a way for old players to welcome them.

How would this work?

Give people ingame rewards for recruiting people. When a new IP address gets on the game, and is active for 6 months, the player under whom they signed up gets 1 mil gold / 100k gold. If you get 10 people to sign up like this, you get a stat bonus of your choice on 1 crit.

Edit: before you ask, yes I did suggest a reward system like this something like 2/3 years ago

Edited by Raylen, 04 May 2009 - 10:28 AM.

[Tietsu]

Or.. bring people in and get nothing? The reward is a stronger economy and playerbase. Can I get an lol?

[Dangerous]

I would leave cobalt out of the discussion simply becuz theres only 2 ingame, cobalt is 10mil for a reason, so if anyone does manage to get the gold don't you think they deserve to be a little overpowered?.. fact of the matter is thieves will win PVP with any class, we all know 1-alt is unbalanced yet people still play, so only advice i would give anyone is to stock up on nightshades and stop wasting their time complaining and just play the game

[Masta]

Interesting points raised. I would sooner nightmist went back to the higher hp area ish type thing. And more towns and less dungeons. i.e. instead of having loads of places to visit have loads of towns to visit?

my 0.02c

[Terron]

all your notions of thieves click everything are FALSE!!!!!!!!!
so what your lvl 30 got clicked by a lvl 36 7 stam thief QQme a river. i mean realistically thats the same as a 21 zerk clicking my lvl 15 omg no way i should go cry and quit.
what lvl 36 crits do thieves really click. um i can give an answer to that. they 90% of the time can only click other thieves which have the lowest total armor rating of classes that get armor. and they click things that generally get the same hp gains and have weak armor (rangers and paladins).

mages on the other hand do need something on 1a. the ability to buy Aop scroll from shop at say 350k cuz they are a click everytime w/o it. we will just have to wait and see if 8 stam thieves cripple mages til then we have no idea.(i know 1a is supposed to be a team effort but lets face it mages arent exactly the party oriented crit. large parties sure tag along small parties they just eat mana too fast. asside from a vg requirement not many roll a mage in the party)
imo mages are the easiest class to pk with maybe not finding pks to kill but killing them yes(i mean the longer or further u look the more mana you need which means less potions)

for fighters i have a simple suggestion increase their minimum hp gain by 1 and more armor (raising average hps for a lvl 30 fighter by 15)
(cuz its totally awesome when my battle hardened warrior gets the same hps as a master of book reading)

Paladins need more armor perhaps not in the for of armor but maybe a spell. one such as call upon deity but at a reduced 75% effectiveness as a clerics(relatively the same as their aid spell difference) i say 75% because paladins do get more base armor than a cleric.

as far as clerics go full armor spells they will never get clicked by anything of equal level.
-to point a fact i tested my 285 hp arch ling cleric vs many 6 stam thieves and some sevens. (ill post a few below)
-I do not have full gear on it.(no bracelets only 1 cr 2 ac ammy)
-i have 175 ac spelled as it sits.

Shinigami lvl 33 dwarf thief running 22 str top damage = 265!!!!!
Seether lvl 35 ling thief with dagger of spirits 51 full stam assassinates leaving me ranged from 2-21 hps remaining #52 he clicked me

Zerks imo do need tweaking they do outrageous damage but miss because they get no mods to dex like other classes
back when arch was the highest level even outmatched by a druid or pally there was always that lil chance of the dreaded smite. with the increased levels and stam that chance has almost shrunk to none. they take damage TOO fast and 14 pots gives them maybe 3 full stam smites in a 1v1 b4 they are completely annihilated.

druids also do not get clicked very often unless running around unspelled as far as their damage i have one thing to say:
Aquaman lvl 22 ling top damage with morph and gaea's --78(fangs -base damage 18)
Fugly lvl 27 half orc fighter top dammage -- 72(halberd base damage 25)
its just my opinion but nothing should out fight a fighter in close combat
also just for the record nourish should ONLY cure hunger not thirst (making use of create spring for clerics and also stops people from droping lvl 15 druids all over the grid for refreshing)

And now for the dreaded thieves
i play thief as main mostly cuz i do the same in almost every game i play i like them i like the concept of being an assassin hiding in the shadows and landing crippling blows.
i also like paladins and fighters but heres the #1 reason i play a thief (i have alot going on all the time i go afk quite a bit for calls boredom cooking etc. the best thing about them is i can just go afk out in the wilderness)
PROS AND CONS
as a whole thieves tend to lose many 1v1s(the lings and gnomes may edge u on dex alone by not failing)
as a medium to large group they are just plain evil (u should have known this before 1a started because on main u didnt log on yur 1 druid and 19 fighters to go pk this party at cg
YOU LOGGED ON YOUR THIEVES!!)

many of u may not know but thief damage was tweaked while u was playing 1a
their minimum damage was raised 75% plus added str bonuses
making gnomes lings humans and dwarves have different minimum damages - (as it stood b4 minimum damage was base of weapon * # of stam)
this effectively made assassinate the exact same as smite (but thieves have mods)
in doing this thieves fail about 50x as often as they originally did(i have no idea if 50x more is correct i just threw out a number)
what i mean by this is simple when i trained my thief to arch i was also playing another game i sat on monsters i could click with DoS at full stam(sentry spiders)
i missed about 1 time every 3 hours(21 dex gnome)
now it seems like you miss atleast once every 5 minutes thats a big increase but i do more damage

in other games thieves only get to try an assassinate once then must fight in hand to hand combat if they fail an assassination attempt.
i initially tried to think how this could be implemented and still fair. in a 1v1 with no pots it would be otherwise not really. then i came up with an idea to keep assassinate the way it is but with a little hindrance to training an d such:
make thieves ONLY able to use assassinate from full stamina (in the secondary rounds they dance dodge and throw a few jabs in preporation for another kill shot attempt)
imo this would balance thieves a little pvp as well as training

P.S. someone train me a dwarf cleric to 37 so i can win every event til the end of 1a(lol except maybe the champs mosh)

[Tietsu]

This guy missed the point. I read the first half and decided to read no more. Level 36 Thief clicks a level 36 Druid unspells. The only advantage a thief has in PvP, is if he doesn't fail on full stam. If a 36 Thief fails on a well trained 36 Druid, the thief is dead, no ifs ands or buts.. HLing or Dwarf. Human wouldn't stand a chance vs 36 Druid by a long shot. Gnomes and HLing stand the best chance, but normally the Druid still wins if no clicked.

I think a major issue also for an Assassin, is if it doesn't click, they're as good as dead. Which comes to Hitokiri's point. If you don't click someone, you're open target for 10 seconds. Druid is nearly unbeatable, when they have no armor decreasing items. Mind you, this is in a dual basis. Thief will win 70% (Maybe more/less) of the PKs they attempt. mainly because we're caught off guard.

Thieves have major advantage PvP. (PvM w/ Vamp Weapons)
Druids have major advantage PvM (w/o vamp weapon) and PvP.

With that, I'd have to say a Druid is overpowered in a duel setting, just not as PK-able as a Thief.

Edited by Tietsu, 27 May 2009 - 01:26 AM.

[Terron]

at what point did my post make u wanna blather on about druids vs thiefs?
u asked for opinions u got them.
druids have been overpowered since they got stormwrath they have been for years. the only reason anythings even close now is because thieves got added damage.
everybody knows a druid is an all around best dueler (until its cobalt vs cobalt dex thieves seem to edge them out anymore might just be cuz nobody has leveled any ling druids to 35 we will have to see) but w/o it nope besides the fact that the only classes besides mage that have a great chance of success at beating a druid 1v1 gets screwed over by ridiculous leech weapons like hawk talon and viper claws.
its ludacris to think any crit that can "do it all" so to speak isnt gunna be overpowered (druids and thieves with their current abilities and the equipment available to them on a 1a server are just overpowered)
i trained to arch w/o using my dotw so it is possible it should be removed

and id still rather pk with a mage its just faster in out gone!

and ofc druids get clicked w/o spells on. Do You actually run around like that?

OH SH** You caught me Monologueing! see what u started

Edited by Terron, 27 May 2009 - 03:01 AM.

[Tietsu]

all your notions of thieves click everything are FALSE!!!!!!!!!
so what your lvl 30 got clicked by a lvl 36 7 stam thief QQme a river. i mean realistically thats the same as a 21 zerk clicking my lvl 15 omg no way i should go cry and quit.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what you wrote. It is in fact that a 35 Thief does click everything, even level 35 of other classes (excluding Berserkers and Fighters)

I used a Druid as a very good comparison, because they are one of two classes that stand a single chance vs a Thief.

And no, I do not run around without spells. I am speaking mainly in a duel setting.

That thief gets the first hit in, you're dead. 35 Thief vs 35 Druid, if that thief lands that hit before that armor macro that your macroing so hard at the beginning isn't cast first, you are dead (if the thief doesn't fail - In which case, the thief is doomed)

[Terron]

if ur talking about events then i apologize for being so brash.
i do agree that thieves clicking unspelled characters that need 2-3 spells to be effective sucks and is unfair a bit and is done seldom by anything other than a dwarf.
truth is the skill is called assassinate not superstab and assassinate means to kill. it does go the otherway around tho take day for instance its click him or be killed for all thieves because u cannot beat him in a pot draining race.

i dont see anyway around that really doing one thing or another hinders one class and empowers another


its inevitable! crits on this game have never been balanced and probably never will be.
heres a simple equation crit A>crit B crit B>crit C crit C>crit A

i believe the 1a2 staff team when complete will make the game more balanced but it still will never be totally balanced. unless the only crit allowed was a fighter of the exact same stats.

[Tietsu]

truth is the skill is called assassinate not superstab and assassinate means to kill.

I think this is the best argument.

Could be different intupretations of 'Assassinate'. Pray on the weak, and when you see your victim slightly, 'Assassinate' them. Assassinating somone wth full HP is nonsense in my opinion. If Assassins are grouped, they are very dangerous. Give a Dwarf Thief an ED an 14 shades, he will annihilate a whole party. Although I give Walt props for that, anyone else with that dedication and a 36 Dwarf could do the same exact thing on him. And yes, when people do that, it brings a whole drag down on the game, when warring clans. (Why does the war exist anyway? How did it start? And why can't we all just band together and play the game.). Minorly successful myself, it's hard to accomplish with someone who has the power to click, restam, click, restam. It is rediculous that they are able, not even a 'empowering' class to deal that kinds of damage.

[Terron]

i agree on the shading down a whole party

i was told by a staff member that the raised minimum damage was intended for main only. it was for training purposes and was accidently added to 1a.
i believe with this removed or reversed it will bring more balance to nightmist by drastically lowering the chances of a click but still allowing a lucky hit. i also believe this is one of the major things that overpowered a dagger of the winds. not saying large bosses still couldnt be killed by a party of these daggers but you would need more members in it to do so.

(i will post my damage from a lvl 34 gnome thief)(all this damage is for mobs or non armored opponents such as zerks)

AFTER ADDED DAMAGE
ED DOS DOTW
282-386 268-373 222-327
avg 334 avg 320.5 avg 274.5

BEFORE ADDED DAMAGE (note that b4 the change all thieves had the same low damage)
ED DOS DOTW
174-386 162-373 120-327
avg 280 avg 267.5 avg 223.5

DIFFERENCE PER CLICK (other races would lose more average damage a click due to their higher top end damage and str bonus to low damage being removed)
ED DOS DOTW
54 53 51

*on a side note on a 4 stam hit with dotw I gain atleast 30 hps at 150 damage, b4 it would have been 16 hps at 80 damage.

*I would post all the races but i do not know the low end damages for them so the numbers would be squeewed and all i like is facts

all in all my gnome got an added 50+ damage a hit and lings humans and dwarves got even more. i just think it should be reversed.
this would give lower levels a chance rather than just being clicked everytime. as you roll upon a low expert and pop him for a 174 and he runs away lol.
cuz imo as it is right now its like #oh bob is on time to go click him .....CLICK ...#bob is off

Edited by Terron, 29 May 2009 - 12:02 AM.

[Gaddy]

i agree on the shading down a whole party

i was told by a staff member that the raised minimum damage was intended for main only. it was for training purposes and was accidently added to 1a.
i believe with this removed or reversed it will bring more balance to nightmist by drastically lowering the chances of a click but still allowing a lucky hit. i also believe this is one of the major things that overpowered a dagger of the winds. not saying large bosses still couldnt be killed by a party of these daggers but you would need more members in it to do so.

(i will post my damage from a lvl 34 gnome thief)(all this damage is for mobs or non armored opponents such as zerks)

AFTER ADDED DAMAGE
ED DOS DOTW
282-386 268-373 222-327
avg 334 avg 320.5 avg 274.5

BEFORE ADDED DAMAGE (note that b4 the change all thieves had the same low damage)
ED DOS DOTW
174-386 162-373 120-327
avg 280 avg 267.5 avg 223.5

DIFFERENCE PER CLICK (other races would lose more average damage a click due to their higher top end damage and str bonus to low damage being removed)
ED DOS DOTW
54 53 51

*on a side note on a 4 stam hit with dotw I gain atleast 30 hps at 150 damage, b4 it would have been 16 hps at 80 damage.

*I would post all the races but i do not know the low end damages for them so the numbers would be squeewed and all i like is facts

all in all my gnome got an added 50+ damage a hit and lings humans and dwarves got even more. i just think it should be reversed.
this would give lower levels a chance rather than just being clicked everytime. as you roll upon a low expert and pop him for a 174 and he runs away lol.
cuz imo as it is right now its like #oh bob is on time to go click him .....CLICK ...#bob is off

I would like to know which staff told you that, and I'd also like to know how you tested your before and after added damage information. I don't buy it.

For one thing, thieves were very weak for quite a long time on Main. When the server went NOPK, they were absolutely useless. So damage was adjusted so that they would not be pointless in PvM, which they were very near aside from being able to covert in large groups---which is far less needed on an NOPK server.
Don't take this to mean that the server not being NOPK means they should be changed. They were not as balanced for damage, and that was fixed.
I don't know that it was balanced correctly for the 1-Alt server since stamina gains are different and covert and such are far more important, but it wasn't all about NOPK.

For a second thing, there is no way that you had a thief at level 34 to test with that throughly pre-damage increase, and now have a thief of the same stats to test post-damage increase. Quite simply, the damage stuff was changed near two years ago, I think. Time slips by me on Nightmist though, I don't keep track of when things happen all that well.
Also, thieves will still hit for lower damage, or they will on NM-Main. I don't know where you got that data from, but the 150-ish damage attacks still occur for mine.


I'm just saying- People post complete bullocks for "research" or "factual damage tables"...and I'd like you to prove that your's isn't---because it looks pretty much made up to me.



Also, why does every thread about 1-Alt become a posting war between people who use thieves as mains and people who use other classes or a clan vs. others. It's over and over and over, and ya'll ruin important and useful discussions by focusing on those topics far too often.


-Gaddy

[Walt]

[/color]Also, why does every thread about 1-Alt become a posting war between people who use thieves as mains and people who use other classes or a clan vs. others. It's over and over and over, and ya'll ruin important and useful discussions by focusing on those topics far too often.
-Gaddy

You asking a question like this is somewhat comperable to a person asking, "What is the meaning of life?"

If you go back to the begining of the creation of NM 1A, you will see the arguement is and probably always will be this. Your cl;ass is the more dominate class of the game at this time. It is unfair that you have this advantage. It happened with mages for almost a year. Now it is the turn for thieves to hold this distinction.

Soon you may see an argument about druids of berserkers. It is a never ending circle of Nightmist life. Our server may not have that long of a life expectancy though to see those arguments.

[Sausage]

Gaddy, people need an excuse when someone else wins. Instead of thinking how they can make their crit better (saving up for GoM or str ammy, leveling up a time or two) they think how the game should change to benefit them. And I don't exactly know where Terron got those numbers, but the dude knows his math lol

I don't exactly remember what the topic at hand is so allow me to address a few points:

The classes aren't all that unbalanced. Most classes excel in either PvM or PvP. With the exception of Fighters, who lack in both. Or Clerics,Thieves and Druids,who excel in both.

Clerics need new grounds to train. Granted there are several unfrequented areas but compared to the abundance of mobs fighting classes have, Clerics need more varieity.

My account just gets to the point where I was ready to save for Cobalt, and this happens...

1a2 will blow your mind.

One thing I just realized, the staff team needs to have respect for each other to function well. I hope you guys can keep that respect and make NM all it can be.

Nightmist needs a multi and solo server (well that's what's been chosen. I say make 1a2 and whack the current 1 and 20 alt.). Not a multi and bigger multi server.

[Apocalypto]

I dont know why people cant admit what is overpowered. When i used thieves i knew they were the most powerful class. I stopped because they were boring. Then i used a 35 mage, which before the Halloween quest it was useless, and got clicked by thieves of the same level with aop casted. One more level and it happens WAAAAAY less and actually normally beats every character in game. Anyways, point is, clay is right. Eventually you will get to the point where thieves dont rape you all the time. You just have to do work. Once you get a certain hp, the increase in assassinate wont be such a big deal, but when your under lvl 33 or below and you get clicked constantly it can be frustrating. We just have to remember its not easy to balance the game, and that despite the way it is unbalanced you can always find another class/race combo that will be a pain for your enemies. Whether you want to train something new, continue leveling your current character, or just get on the forum and pregnant dog(i chose to do all of the above before Day was leveled lol) is up to you.



Terrons numbers seem to be fairly accurate to me, although i have no idea where he got them. This proves my point that once we all get enough hp thieves will be pretty balanced. But until that point, they can click an awful lot of the game lol.

Edited by Apocalypto, 29 May 2009 - 06:47 PM.

[Terron]

how i got them? lol i got pages of info in the 9 years ive played this game wanna see other classes? mage perhaps?

the fact is thieves gained 0 minimum damage per level b4 the change but gain 6 max end each class rank adept expert master arch class 1 etc.
and how did i test my damage b4 the change? simple i was way past arch b4 the change. there was 4 thieves above lvl 24 when i arched thought u knew that.

u may contact me ingame about which staff told me the info if u like. im not turning this into a staff flaming topic.

p.s. i do know the max hits of all thieves based of what mine is because:

1 str adds 2.5 max end damage for all classes (dunno mages im not wasting my time testing staff attacks)
that would ofc take effect on each stam.

hence an arch ling does 12.5 top end more than a gnome, human 25, and dwarf 50 (if u wish to try and prove me incorrect be my guest keep in mind i arched 1 of each thief b4 most of u ever made an account.)

numbers are my thing dont mean to boast but i did master calculus at age 14.

recently i have been testing armor vs assassinate. i have figured out the lowest possible number ac will knock off your assassinate trying to find the high end of it id have to start 1 stamming people and i see that as something that takes alot of help doing.(plus running around vert in town to lose stam would be time consuming)

enough rambling on!! if a staff member would like to know my information just ask ingame or leave memoes on terron 1a limelight main(im not on main alot)
i have no problem helping out i feel it is a duty as a player to know whats going on b4 passing harsh judgement.


to gaddy all that damage table was 6 stam hits only

Edited by Terron, 29 May 2009 - 11:23 PM.

[Dangerous]

You all have wayyyyy too much time on your hands.

P.S and to stay on topic, that in my opinion!

Edited by Dangerous, 31 May 2009 - 02:23 PM.