55 replies to this topic

[Zylia]

I'm saying pacifists are just little gold miners that have not a care in the world.

To make a small point...:
Vodka currently has 1,443,142,221xp... she has killed 5465 Modern Art Sculptures. If I multiplied the number of mods killed times their value in gold, I would come to about: 1,912,750 gold (multiplying the mods*350 gold if anyones curious).

Another pacifist, Mechanos, has 1,329,292,302xp. He has killed 10279 Modern Art Sculptures. This amounts to: 3,597,650 gold.

And to top it off, Zoom, with 1,077,538,491xp, has killed 16110 Modern Art Sculptures. This goes to 5,638,500 gold!

Not to mention, I have seen numerous other pacifists with over 8000 modern kills, so these are not the only crits who have an extreme amount of modern kills.

You can't sit and tell me that earning over half a million gold is fine by one class?
I'm not trying to have them removed, but I do think that something needs to be changed so that someone doesn't earn their entire worth on a pacifist. People should have to work for what they earn. I'm sorry but I don't consider sitting on a pacifist for hours and chatting a lot of work.

EDIT: omg Charon, and here I am thinking my posts are too long lol

Edited by Zylia, 13 April 2004 - 11:35 PM.

[Vodka]

To make a small point...:
Vodka currently has 1,443,142,221xp... she has killed 5465 Modern Art Sculptures. If I multiplied the number of mods killed times their value in gold, I would come to about: 1,912,750 gold (multiplying the mods*350 gold if anyones curious).

Yeah, what happens when you don't have a life.. so

I liked paci's before. When they were more useful. Now, they're only useful for tons of gold (not complaining about that!) and for protecting people at bosses. Maybe to go explore new areas, don't know many people who do that though. Majority just use them for gold and to annoy their enemies. It's sad.. I have to complain about the class.. I'm only dominate at.. since I can't be touched by anyone.

[Silverwizard]

Ok, go bring some rangers into the zeum, you can hit with a rapid fire (if macro'd to MAS) alot of times in about 5 seconds causing massive problems to the MAS prolly killing it losing less damage than a paci and also losing little Hp (1 inv each adv healing should fix, yes pacis do pay for mana) and also no mana, meaning you lose about as much as the paci for the round. Meaning that since you can log multiple chars in rather than the paci you can make more. The only problem is that you have earned the amount with 1 char rather than 10 or 50 or whatever you use, is that a problem? Also, they do not get pked, you leave them alone they leave you alone, JZ cannot be used to make it so that only 1 side can pk, requires all stam so you need to refresh 2x. Trust me, paci's are not over powered, they are simply as powerful as more than simply 1 ranger/theif/whatever but does not get in pvp and only has 1 at a time.

[Bean]

Honestly, making 5 mill with one character is not a good arguement...

Any other class can fight non-undead monsters to get drops that run at like 3 mill a piece... Pacifists have very few bosses, and are ALWAYS outnumbered at them anyways, so the only place they have to make money is the museum.... It takes a DAMN long time to make that much money in the zeum with a paci....

Look at those characters gametime....

Ta ta...

Edit: Ok so they dont have HUGE gametimes.... but I know from experience that almost 95% of their game time would have been spent in the zeum... that IS a long time making money compared to other classes...

Edited by Bean, 14 April 2004 - 12:54 AM.

[dognapot]

bean, would you say it was a good thing for a 1-alt class crit to represent such a volume of wealth for other crits? i may be wrong but weren't pacifists developed for personal (crit by itself), and RP use? yet we see them commonly working for an individual's team. by manipulating pvp interaction and collecting gold they'll never personally spend. the gold thing i see is more like a bitch to pimp kind of situation...

Pimp_Xor:haha my bitch what have you got for daddy?
Mizz_Pacifist: i gotcha money baby
Pimp_Xor: beautiful my sweets! now daddys off to buy pretty things for himself to wear rings and jewelry and the like you know...
Mizz_Pacifist: gettin' me anything daddy?
Pimp_Xor: no your a pacifist, what more do you need than to get me money bitch! ha!

is that the kind of comically exagerated purpose pacifists were inteded to have? if it were, wouldn't pacifists have a better name than pacifists? why do i keep explaining things in comically exagerated fictional dialogues? anyways, i have a feeling that if pacifists weren't able to transfer thier wealth to other players, we'd see alot less activity from them, because aside from thier abusable abilities, they're rather dull.

[gnarley]

well ill be blunt.. pacifist are for people who cant fight on reuglar alts.. plain and simple..

well ill be blunt too.Fighting with loads of alts is for ppl with no skill.:)plain and simple.

it may not take tehh skill to much to kill peep swith that many crits, but atleast it takes some skill to get all teh crits instead of a gd pacifist that any noob can train in no time u gd retard

Edited by gnarley, 14 April 2004 - 08:03 AM.

[Bean]

/t dognapot Im sure it would be more trouble than its worth to stop Pacifists from giving alts money. You would have to stop it in so many forms.

Dropping gold.
Direct giving using two comps.
Selling of items over site for certain ammounts of money *This one would probably be hardest to stop*.
Getting killed by a monster with your paci, and killing it with an alt.


Etc, etc etc etc.

So really, what im saying is, I agree with you. But I dont believe we will see it changed anytime soon, just because its a large hassle for a not very important, or unbalancing aspect of the game.

Edit: Gnarley.... WHAT!?!?!

Edited by Bean, 14 April 2004 - 08:12 AM.

[Stigmata]

My opinion on pacifists is that they are an ok idea, and obviously could work but they definately need some improvements/changes.

Firstly I think some of you acted in a very unjust manner when replying to some of these posts - just because someone wants something changed doesn't mean it's because they cant pk the class etc, it's because they can see something wrong and want to help improve it....

Gold making on pacis = Here's one idea I know some of you will love. Make it so when a paci makes gold, a percent (shall we say 50%) of it will be donated to the deity.......sure the deity doesn't need gold but he does appreciate the gesture........would make sense in my opinion too, as the deity does provide an excellent service.

Interfering with other players = Paci's can interfer with other players gaming experience with out loss or a chance of losing anything. That is to say a paci can come up to anyone in the game and basically ruin their idea of enjoyment by being a complete moron. Obviously not all paci's are like this and some are ok, but others abuse the skills they have by sitting on a square with someone else and basically annoying them by either casting JZ or reducing their attacking power.

I realise not everyone likes to pk, but those who do should be allowed to right? and not be stopped by a paci who has nothing better to do.

Here's my idea. If a paci casts justice zone on a square the deity will constantly drain the paci's gold fund. As we said before paci's have no real use for gold, so this may be one. The gold drained to deity would be dependant on the amount of players on square (obviously the more there are the more it'll cost), the level of the paci, and the level of the other players on square.

Say there was 20 level 30's on a square waiting to duel another clan, and a paci came around and used JZ for no reason (and i have seen it happen) it would cost the paci around 5000 gold every 20 seconds to keep it up.........

Feel free to comment on improvements, but something similar to this could work.

[SouthernBelle]

If the gold drain were to take place then JZ would most likely never be used. (In my opinion)

Also if it were made so paci's couldn't transfer gold then there would not really be a difference, because the person that wanted to buy something could buy it with their paci. Therefore, that would be kind of pointless.

[Silverwizard]

WTFH, you have problems with the fact paci's can ruin your gaming experience by causing you not to be PKED????????? I think the experience is more ruined by 10 covert theives being led by a ranger or two going around killing your chars.

[Bean]

He is right Stigmata... In a... not very eloquent kind of way.

All the ideas that have been suggested to change pacifist have been to do basically three things. Make pacis pkable... Make it easier to pk with pacis around... Or ruin pacis ability to make gold effectively.

Yours so far are the only DIFFERENT ones, but are still geared towards making pking easier when there is a bored pacifist around.

Edit: And besides, pandilex doesnt seem to think the class is being used in any other way than was intended... so...

I could be wrong though...

Edited by Bean, 14 April 2004 - 06:29 PM.

[gnarley]

If the gold drain were to take place then JZ would most likely never be used. (In my opinion)

that would be the point, jz is ruining it, they shoudl just take it out of the game, because all it really does is create controversy, i mean, if pkers wnana pk let them, when all the people who have been playing for a long time had to put up with it at there low levels, but now that paccis' are around they make it to easy for noobs,



Bean: if u read the whole thing u'll understand shouldnt' take much but kinda just look it over maybe

Silverwizard: thats the way it used to be like i said, just because u dont like it doesnt mean u shoudl get it easy now, everyone else who started before paci's were around had to deal with all the thieves, and rangers etc..

[Silverwizard]

I trained a mage without the level cap. I really thought it was stupid, so I suggested the level cap, not much anti people posted. A few weeks later a large (2x as big) level cap was put in. It is called progress.

Also, think of it this way, the paci by casting JZ while your pking, maybe he is pking you without taking your money and exp unless your dumb enough to round yourself.

[Bean]

You know honestly... I see the problem as this.

Justice zone...

Get rid of it, and make both sides happy... Pacifists should not be able to bugger around in the violent affairs of others anyhow... I can honestly say, with my pacifist I have NEVER used JZ, simply because I think its stupid, and a waste...

Because really without that, people dont have much of a gripe about pacifists... If that ability had NEVER been put in, people wouldnt have even brought up a topic like this, and everyone could be playing nightmist instead of posting on the forum about how some pacifist is ruining thier oh so wonderful experiences in nightmist.

[Dan]

And to top it off, Zoom, with 1,077,538,491xp, has killed 16110 Modern Art Sculptures. This goes to 5,638,500 gold!

I also own Hawk and Chinchilla. For your comments Hawk will return to the museum now, Zoom might now too, we'll see. (I don't mind sitting on a paci.)

Not that it matters but a good portion (roughtly 65%) of my profits went to other people. How? I'd overpay for a crit, then resell it down the road for much less then I paid, donte to clans (some that are no longer ranked) bla bla bla.

On another note, item prices went up once paci's came to play. Remember 10k-15k for a museum key? They more then doubled at the peak paci time.

[The_Final_Climax]

Isn't it something pacifists do..try to stop fights..and what not?..so if thats the case, wouldn't depriving them of that be making them pointless? Not sure if I'm right, just posting what I'm trying to rember..

[dognapot]

Isn't it something pacifists do..try to stop fights..and what not?..so if thats the case, wouldn't depriving them of that be making them pointless? Not sure if I'm right, just posting what I'm trying to rember..

i always thought pacifists choosed to abstain from violence. although i may also be wrong in a technical sense that isn't elaborated on in dictionaries.

[Bean]

No...

Pacifist pretty much stay away from all forms of violence... So really, them trying to stop violence is againts their nature....

[gnarley]

Isn't it something pacifists do..try to stop fights..and what not?..so if thats the case, wouldn't depriving them of that be making them pointless? Not sure if I'm right, just posting what I'm trying to rember..

yes, pacis' are anti-violence crits/peeps but people are abusing pacifists not only in using jz to protect peeps who are afraid to play the game like it si posed tobe played.. i mean they made training arena's for safe training, and outside of towns is where it's a risk, thas the way nightmsit has always been adn should be, now with pacifists u cna have an arena anywhere, also pacifist do nothing but still kills, and u can't do nothing about it, i mean not all but alot do abuse that ability for instance, Melissa was in tunnels while iw as trainin adn kept jacking kills and when i said wtf? she goes, lol i'll still kills because theres nothing ju can do about it

[gnarley]

Also, think of it this way, the paci by casting JZ while your pking, maybe he is pking you without taking your money and exp unless your dumb enough to round yourself.

that is dumb cause it's just an invincible pker, that is a jack ass and protects retarded noobs who dont wanna play teh game the way it is meant to be played, and that is WITH RISK!!

[Crane]

People do abuse Pacifists, I admit, but most of us are honourable enough not to steal kills and such, and we pay compensation if we accidentally do. Those who do abuse Pacifists I find are looked down upon, even by other Pacifists. One Pacifist was stealing the kills off Europa (my Pacifist), and to my slight surprise, two other Pacifists show up to help me and manage to convert the rogue Pacifist - she no longer steals kills.

Not everyone likes the aspect of PK-ing, and Pacifists are a good way to escape that. So why punish the people who do not like to be PK-ed? If they want to use their Pacifist for that reason, let them. Not everyone is or will be skilled at playing Nightmist, they just want to enjoy themselves.

You are right when you say that it does not take much skill to use a Pacifist, but it takes even less skill to run around with an army of high-level alts destroying everything in its path thanks to safety in numbers. I admire those who are brave enough to train and fight with single crits. Of course, an alt-army I feel is the only way to truly dominate in Nightmist due to the nature of the game.

Justice Zone has been downgraded so you cannot run around with it enabled, and that has stopped most of the abuse. The only time I see the spell actively used now is when a friend is logging on crits on the same square or around a boss, usually the Demonic General, so players do not fight over the boss drop.

[Charon]

[quote name=' Bean' date=' Apr 15 2004, 03:19 AM ']You know honestly... I see the problem as this.

Justice zone...

Get rid of it, and make both sides happy... Pacifists should not be able to bugger around in the violent affairs of others anyhow... I can honestly say, with my pacifist I have NEVER used JZ, simply because I think its stupid, and a waste...

Because really without that, people dont have much of a gripe about pacifists... If that ability had NEVER been put in, people wouldnt have even brought up a topic like this, and everyone could be playing nightmist instead of posting on the forum about how some pacifist is ruining thier oh so wonderful experiences in nightmist.[/quote]

http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/...;num=1076186025%5b/url%5d%20%5d
Regarding%20Justice%20Zones,%20I%20love%20the%20idea%20of%20Justice%20Zones.%20I%20think%20they're%20great%20...%20I%20just%20dont%20tend%20to%20use%20em%20^^%20I%20personally%20play%20the%20game%20to%20play%20it,%20so%20I%20cant%20see%20the%20point%20in%20wandering%20away%20and%20leaving%20a%20jz%20on%20in%20the%20faint%20hope%20someone%20may%20attack%20in%20my%20square...%20especially%20now%20that%20a%20paci%20cant%20move%20around%20and%20take%20their%20jz%20with%20em %20
I%20mean,%20just%20leaving%20a%20character%20on%20a%20square...%20no%20offense%20intended%20to%20anyone%20who%20does%20this,%20but%20I%20cant%20see%20the%20fun%20in%20that%20:s[/quote]

There's%20another%20post%20I%20wrote%20about%20JZ's%20in%20the%20forum%20thread%20"%20%5burl="http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=Comments;action=display;num=1076638423" target="_blank">JZ freaking blows " on the old forum. That thread is short and sweet, and my statements can be read there too. I'm not quoting that one because I made references to things other people had said... and I'm not going to sit here quoting them all, so you can clikc the link to read that one

Now I agree my views have changed slightly since I wrote that. My own use of JZ is still very very rare... as I mentioned before, restricted to allowing people to log on, a knee-jerk reaction to protect people I'm talking with.

That said... JZ is a good way of messing with pkers. If you protect the people their after, its a form of affront, a conscious effort to challenge them when you know they can do nothing about it.

But Pkers mess with other players too. Its what they do, its what they enjoy.
Pking is part of the game.
Pkking is, therefore, also part of the game.
And so, Anti-pking is therefore quite logically a part of the game as well.

The Justice Zone ability is a way to balance out the power struggles that take place in nightmist.
Its very very hard to misuse justice zone now. Sure you can cast it in a square... eventually your friends/enemies/aquaintances will leave that square.
You cannot make a 'portable arena' because a pacifist is confined to one square, and the monsters in any given square run out... and fairly swiftly.

And if you do cast JZ in a square and hope to kill people... the nice green pacifism does stand out. People will notice that a pacifist is sitting on square doing nothing, and that tends to be suspicious. And if you arent certain, one attack is enough to check it out, realise that you did yourself damage... and stop attacking.
That way you don't kill yourself, and the pacifist doesnt get that player kill.

[quote name=' Gnarley' date=' Apr 15 2004, 04:09 AM']also pacifist do nothing but still kills[/quote]
Yet again, I plead sweeping generalisation
I personally have never purposefully stolen a kill... never.
And on the occassion when I have by mistake, I always give the person I have accidently wronged the money, just as Crane's pacifist dpes

You can't simply say thats all pacifists do... I've never done that. Arguement dismissed.

[quote name=' Gnarley' date=' Apr 15 2004, 04:11 AM']that is dumb cause it's just an invincible pker, that is a jack ass and protects retarded noobs who dont wanna play teh game the way it is meant to be played, and that is WITH RISK!![/quote]

The old "pacifists are invincible pkers" arguement?
I apologise to anyone who has read my answer to this before:

[quote name=' Charon' date=' [url="http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/...;num=1076186025']I dont mean any offense by this, but this whole "players have no way of defending themselves against paci's (if a paci kills them they cant get revenge). Paci's can kill any other class, yet no one can kill them" idea is greatly warped and flawed :s
Sure a paci can try its hardest to kill someone by exhausting their stam and mana by sudbuing them while they attack, but the damage recieved is halved as well as the damage done.
Unless someone attacks them, there is very little a paci can do to get ANYONE killed. At all. 
I wander around with my paci, I cant decide that I dont like someone and try to kill them. Now if I can convince them to commit suicide by goading them into attacking me, then fair play to me ^^ but thats not the way I work, and I doubt thats ever a truly successful tactic for any paci. 

I can only kill if someone clicks me without thinking... and even then if they do that a coupla times without noticing their own health bar... thats hardly the action of a class "which can kill any other class"
How the heck can something without the ability to take any real action be "the best pking class in nightmist"? 

I remember someone on the forums once saying something like (and a paraphrase terribly) "if you cant deal with taking a little damage, maybe you shouldn't be trying to pk anyone"
In this instance the class is irrelavant... If you attack someone, it goes without saying that that person is going to attack back if they get the chance ... the same applies to pacis. The damage is just a little more... certain ^^[/quote]


Oh, and just for the record, I severely dislike being referred to as a "jack ass"

Edited by Charon, 15 April 2004 - 07:10 PM.

[Stigmata]

[quote name='Crane' date='Apr 15 2004, 01:16 PM']

You are right when you say that it does not take much skill to use a Pacifist, but it takes even less skill to run around with an army of high-level alts destroying everything in its path thanks to safety in numbers.

Er where did you get that from? trying to cater for more than 1 crit at once is difficult, nevermind attempting to pk with 6+.........saying it requires less skill is rediculous.

Edited by Stigmata, 16 April 2004 - 03:24 PM.

[Crane]

Initially, yes it is hard to work with more than 1 crit at once. But once you get used to it, nothing stands a chance except another party of alts!

[Crane]

And if we are all going to start flaming each other rather than express our individual views on Pacifists, I can't see this thread staying open much longer.

[Gaddy]

No no no no no. 1 alt = easy as hell when it is a pacifist. All you have to do is not go afk for long enough to have people come drag stuff onto your square.

I bought an arch paci..i rarely use it because i find no point in sitting on 1 crit in the zeum to make gold..it annoys me and is boring. I've lent him and the level 25 chase and i trained to friends just because i never logged them on.

When i did log on just to do stuff, i found that they are definatly too good. They've got high hp, high mana, and practically never use mana crystals in the zeum because of the way deity checks which is lower between health and mana now.

A good way to lower the ammount of gold they make is to make it so that they actually have to tribute again. When they first came out and most deity went to healing for 0-3 health they didn't make THAT much gold. At that time it seemed like nearly half of it went to tributing (that was on my lower level though, 25ish). Making deity give half of the ammount of mana it does or something along those lines would make them get far less gold in the end.


I agree that pacifists were originally made to be a solo-class that didn't involve your alts, which ought to mean that they cannot give gold to people or themselves knowing they're going to use it to make, buy, or w/e things to do harm to others. I don't really see a way for it to be prevented though, and really do not care too much that they can give gold to alts.

Pacifist are causing the NM economy to be overflowed with gold.
It bothers me seeing how much gold is in game now. Pacifists have made so much that they spend too much on level 1s and other crits and items and all of that crap, now the avg. person seems to have 1-2m in their account..when back in the days i was rich when i hit 2m one time (then spent 1.8 on a 6/6 human lol)...most players sat around 200-500k if that. I still tend to sit around that ammount or around 30-50k lol, but other players (as i see on char scores on site) have easily got 2-3m nearly all the time. Pacifist are causing the NM economy to be overflowed with gold.

I like Ste's suggestion of making them tribute about half of the gold they make to their diety...in the way that they started off having to makes more sense to me though. (not having full mana all the time from diety therefore having to tribute to deity)

I really see no problem with their spells and stuff. If you're not someone they dislike then they don't try to bother you. I do not think they should be able to sit in an area for an infinate ammount of time (creating food and water and tributing when they have to) while making gold so easily, though.

-Gaddy