58 replies to this topic

[lowmion]

So......

/t Pandilex , did you end up testing an arch human mage, which had been modified to 9 hp gains ?

[Thunderja]

Pandy is gone Matt, but the 8 or 9 hp random gains are still a very good idea for humans.

[lowmion]

no more Pandi ? -sob-

Soo.. can another sysop try it out?

Ya all still support this idea to varying degree's I take it ?

[Squee]

This thread is pretty old so I'm not sure if I've stated my opinion or not. Originally, I think I was against this idea.

However, now I feel that, yes, a human mage should be set apart from elven/gnome mages. Besdies their +5% exp, they should get a fair chance at getting 9 HP upon level.

[lowmion]

Yup, you were to some degree, tis good to see that you've changed ya mind.

I know this thread is old, but it's still applicable, and maybe more ppl's will support it now, including Jlh ? (hope springs eternal).

[lowmion]

With the update coming up, to stop armor stacking etc, could this thread be made a reality at the same time?

Any chance of a staff reponse on this? a simple yes/no will do, lol

[Crane]

The only problem I can see is that if Human Mages get a possible 9 HP gain on level-up , so will Half-Elves, since they also have 19 Constitution maximum, and they dominate over Human Mages in terms of the necessary stats... humans are xx 19 19 19 19 xx and Half-Elves are xx 20 19 19 19 xx.

[lowmion]

That may or may not be the case depending on the racial bonus's etc, and any hidden extra's we're not aware of.

Besides, (even though my mage is obviously human), even if half elves did be the better class, it still needs to be done, and would bring more diversity to which race to use as they would all then have different benefits.

Any news from Jlh as to a yes/no/maybe ?

[lowmion]

Obviously after all this time and no official response from Staff, this is never going to be given a solid yes/no.

So how about a different use for the extra con?

If it was set up so that spell duration was reliant on con, (similar to a thief's covert movement/duration),

Then the 19 con could come into play by increasing all spell durations for a agreed upon time period.

This would be a less agreeable, (for me anyways), but still a usefull reason for rolling a human or half-elf as a mage.

As the extra say 20 seconds would be handy, in alot of different circumstances.

[Ryuku]

16 con, 6 hp; 17 con, 7 hp; 18 con, 8 hp; 19 con, 9 hp?

[green_mantis]

I am against human mages getting an extra amount of HP just for one point of constitution.

Some races are better for some classes, it is a reality that all must cope with.

Just as some people are better suited for some tasks. You need to realise that in all things, life just isn't fair.

[Sean]

Squee is right, a certain 9 is not a good idea, the chance of a 9 is and with the extra 5% exp gain would make the playing field about as even as it should be.

I'm afraid not. Mages get 5% more damage inside a forest, and that balances out the 5% more experience, the race balances are even.

THe constitution gains are NOT!

So they have to always train inside a forest. That make them real equal.

[Eternyte]

I am against human mages getting an extra amount of HP just for one point of constitution.

If 17 cons give 7 hp, 18 cons gives 8 hp....doesn't it make perfect sense that 19 cons gets 9hp? This being the case I don't think that Human rangers should get more hp than Halfling rangers, and Half-Orc berserkers more hp than Dwarf berserkers....You obviously must agree since it's the same logic of 1 more constitution not giving more hp.

Squee is right, a certain 9 is not a good idea, the chance of a 9 is and with the extra 5% exp gain would make the playing field about as even as it should be.

I'm afraid not. Mages get 5% more damage inside a forest, and that balances out the 5% more experience, the race balances are even.

THe constitution gains are NOT!

So they have to always train inside a forest. That make them real equal.

Sean, Mec was just explaining that Elves get 5% more damage in the forest and 20 wisdom therefore more mp, Gnomes get 5% more chance to resist and the highest mage dexterity of 20. They also both have 21 intelligence which means they can do about 20 more damage per round than Humans and about 10 more damage than Half-Elves.

So 19 constitution giving 9 hp definately would balance for the lower damage. Sure Half-Elves get 2.5% damage in forest and 2.5% more exp, so what? Atleast Half-Elves might become useable as a class instead of being totally overlooked in all aspects of the game.

[Despair]

I really don't believe that an extra hit point per level is the way to go here . . . .

my reasoning for not agreeing with this is because the extra int that other races have makes very little difference damage as opposed to the 19 int posessed by humans . . .

30 extra hp however on a class that survives on very little hp is a huge difference and I see this will cause humans to be majorly over powered . . .

Only way this would work is if Human mages started with a little extra hp at level one and gained a little extra hp at level 30 . . . or spell damage was changed

[lowmion]

/t Despair
Just out of curiousity, how much is a little?

[Despair]

not sure of exact differences . . . but no more than a 10 damage difference . . .

Eternyte is the expert on working damages out for spell casters

[Drac]

my half elf mage has 19 con.. i wish she would gain 9s a.a

[lowmion]

/t Despair,

As far as I'm aware, (and I could be wrong btw), Human mages do hit for less with beam than elf/gnome mages against the same crit, and have more fizzle etc.

From what Eternyte has said previously on this post, he is of the same same opinion,

So if indeed the average difference is in fact 10 damage per round, then you're in support of the 19 cons = 9 hps?

Or how much more starting hps are you suggesting that 19 cons mages start with? and how much more as a bonus gain when Arched?

As thats a new variant on this post and am curious as to what you suggest if indeed that's what you'ld be happy with.

[Despair]

Im not in support of the 19 con = 9 hp . . .

What I suggested was a larger hp starting bonus and then a larger hp bonus at level 30 . . .

[lowmion]

/t Despair.

Well it's back to the original question i had for you then,

How much more of a starting bonus and arch bonus would you be happy with?

[MessiahX]

as to how many mages are in the game with 19 hp...I know Vent (if the name kept) has 19 con. even though it has 18 wiz =S and I rolled a 4 stat h-elf mage and sold it a while back. so in my opinion...definate 9's for 19 con makes perfect sense.

[Squee]

Don't definate 9s mean that a mage will pretty much have the same HP as a Cleric?

I'm all for a chance of getting a 9. I'd also accept starting/finishing with a greater HP bonus... but not definate 9s.

[lowmion]

Except that the arn't any dwarf mages in the game,

So.....

Squee,

How much extra hp's would you agree with?

If not definite 9's then what percentage chance of getting a 9 ?

If a Higher starting hp and finishing hp bonus then how much would you agree with?

Bearing in mind it has to be a compensation for the lower spell casting strength, more fizzles etc.

And that this would make half-elves a more usefull class as well.

Also one thing you're forgetting about clerics, most mages cant beat them 1 vs 1.

[Eternyte]

14 + (8*28) + 16 = 254hp (current hp for 18 and 19 cons mages)

14 + (9*28) + 16 = 282hp (proposed hp for 19 cons mages)

Gnome/Elves have 21 int, +2 int over humans and +1 over half-elf.
1 int = +2 max dmg. 2 int = +4 max dmg.

i.e. Gnomes/Elves do 10 more damage per round than half-elves, and 20 more damage per round than humans.

20+10 = 30/2 = 15. Gnomes/Elves do an average of 15 more dmg per round than 19 cons mages.

Therefore, if we agree that 19 cons mages should also get 8 hp every single level and should start with more hp and gain more hp at level 30, then I believe the 2 figures should tally in.

For instance, if a 19 cons mage starts with 22 hp and gains 24 hp at level 30.

22 + (28*8) + 24 = 270hp

That would mean every 19 cons mage would have 270hp at level 30. This balances with the other racial bonuses that all gnomes/elves/humans/half-elves get.

Gnomes = 5% extra resist against magic, 20 dex (extra dodging), 21 int (extra damage)
Elves = 5% more dmg in forest, 20 wisdom (more mana), 21 int (extra damage)
Humans = 5% more exp, 19 cons (+16 more hp)
Half-Elves = 2.5% more damage in forests, 2.5% more exp, 19 cons (+16 more hp)

[Sneaky]

*claps at Eternyte's performance

Very well said. I like it. And as for "why make a human when you can have a half elf mage," because we can?

[lowmion]

Nicely explained Eternyte, sounds fine.


/t Squee and Despair,

Are you both happy with Eternyte's starting and finishing hp bonus?

[Squee]

I'm not the one you have to convince.

[lowmion]

That's almost certainly true, but seeing as you previously said

I'm all for a chance of getting a 9. I'd also accept starting/finishing with a greater HP bonus... but not definate 9s.

Then I was wanting to know if you're happy with Eternytes start/finish hps', as then it's one more person that agree's.

As for Jlh I'm sure he's aware of this ongoing topic, but it would be good if he was to put in a indication as to his position on this, (hint), lol.

[lowmion]

Heres the original thread on that mage hp debate, didn't realise that something so old would still be in the server, hence the other thread.

Soley resurrected so that all those that are too new to the forum to remember it can see all the workings out that many ppl put into the dispute.

Edited by lowmion, 21 April 2006 - 04:36 AM.