324 replies to this topic

[Mec]

Post political discussions. And uhh, this should be limited to American and European politics (and everything that concerns that, E.G. Israeli stuff, Russian stuff that's in Asia)

I'd like to begin by saying Blair and Bush are brilliant!

Let the fight begin!

[Penguin]

I'd first like to say that I agree.

Secondly, I'd like to say that these dicussions always turn into a fight and get locked... lets try to prevent that.

[Mec]

Yes, courtesy above all things! Be very polite and try not to insult. Criticism should DEFINETELY happen, but don't just say "ur stupid", or something like that.

To avoid being flamed, use proper grammar, correct spelling, and refrain from using stupid abbreviations(sp?) like "ur" or "thx" or "plz" and that stuff.

[Darklin]

Your opinions are all poo, does that get the topic locked?

[Penguin]

Oh yeah, and you also have to have the rule "no darkling" in order to prevent the locking of this topic.

[Darklin]

The person above me likes to molest pies

[Penguin]

so

(lol this is already so far off topic)

[Darklin]

The person above me is proud to molest pies

[Dc]

Post political discussions. And uhh, this should be limited to American and European politics (and everything that concerns that, E.G. Israeli stuff, Russian stuff that's in Asia)

I'd like to begin by saying Blair and Bush are brilliant!

Let the fight begin!

yes i also believe that bush has done a great job.

[Cule]

Bush has done a great thing bringing hussein down but what about america ... what ive heard things are not going so good there ...

[Mec]

Not really. Most of what you here that is 'bad' in America is propaganda.

Bush is going to stay in office, Kerry's a joke.

Our supreme court is trash, I mean, legalizing gay marriage, that's just gross.

Another problem is that our population is failing. I blame it on abortion, millions killed each year. It's gross and evil.

Aside from that, our economy is good (regardless of what you might here), gas prices are up though, I think we should commute on bikes like other countries (China, in particular).

I live a happy life, and I'm middle class. My only phear for my country is the UN.

I'm proud of my country and especially those brave soldiers overseas (me uncle be a navy S.E.A.L.), except for a certain soldier *cough*Ker*cough*ry*cough*, who 'threw away his medals' (and then said he didn't, later). What on Earth does that guy stand for!

[dognapot]

Not really. Most of what you here that is 'bad' in America is propaganda.

Bush is going to stay in office, Kerry's a joke.

Our supreme court is trash, I mean, legalizing gay marriage, that's just gross.

Another problem is that our population is failing. I blame it on abortion, millions killed each year. It's gross and evil.

Aside from that, our economy is good (regardless of what you might here), gas prices are up though, I think we should commute on bikes like other countries (China, in particular).

I live a happy life, and I'm middle class. My only phear for my country is the UN.

I'm proud of my country and especially those brave soldiers overseas (me uncle be a navy S.E.A.L.), except for a certain soldier *cough*Ker*cough*ry*cough*, who 'threw away his medals' (and then said he didn't, later). What on Earth does that guy stand for!

i was going to write nearly the exact same thing in [sarcasm] tags.

one thing though, a decrease in population can't be logically explained by an unquantifiable amount of potential humans. it's equivocable of saying "the amount of rainforest is decreasing because of people who don't like planting trees". that probably makes sense to people here, but it's the best i can do on short notice. not saying anything about abortion here, but that was the funniest way to say "i don't need to think to communicate" that i've seen in a while.

[Dc]

Not really.  Most of what you here that is 'bad' in America is propaganda.

Bush is going to stay in office, Kerry's a joke.

Our supreme court is trash, I mean, legalizing gay marriage, that's just gross.

Another problem is that our population is failing.  I blame it on abortion, millions killed each year.  It's gross and evil.

Aside from that, our economy is good (regardless of what you might here), gas prices are up though, I think we should commute on bikes like other countries (China, in particular).

yeah i agree with all that too.

bush=awesome, kerry=lame

gay marraige=immoral, its not natural and obviously not the way things are supposed to be. The parts just dont fit that way. i treat any homosexual. person that i meet the same as any other person, and would respect them as a person, but i do not, and will never respect homosexuality as a lifestyle. i believe that it is totally wrong and that gay marraiges should not be allowed leagally.
(and im sure a lot of people might hate me for saying that, but i dont care.)

Abortion is bad, it is actually just child murder. the only time that abortion should be allowed is if both the parent and child are going to die and that is the only way to save one of them. other than that, i think it should be illeagal. I dont blame the population failing because of this alone, or even consider a less dence population a bad thing, but nonetheless, abortion is bad and should be against the law.

and i also believe that human cloning is bad.

Edited by Dc, 18 July 2004 - 04:52 AM.

[Shane]

Hmm, this thread echos another on a different forum. Too bad that thread on the other forum didnt get locked.

As for this thread I say the samething I say on the other forums thread.

Bush is just trying to out do his daddy. Kerry is a waste of time and effort. The government of the US is a waste of space and only believes in themselves and what they can get done to make themselves look good. And when they fail at making themselves look good out comes the black magic marker to stop the people from seeing the mistakes. They lie to the people to get them to back their stupid decissions and when its found out that they lie out comes the black magic marker. They hide things from the people and care nothing of the well being of the US as a whole.

I still say that we are all one people, the world as a whole. It should not be Russians, Americans, Austrailians, etc etc. It should be the people of this planet striving to better the world as a whole. We all have to live on this rock together. But alas from the history of mankind we are destined to destroy ourselves and I believe that we will end up doing just that before we destroy the world itself.

Edited by Shane, 18 July 2004 - 05:18 AM.

[Dc]

i happen to like the American goverment, i think they do an fantastic job.

[Shane]

The only fantastic job they do is pulling wool over the eyes of the people. How can you say that the government does a great job? They lied to the people of the US about Saddam having all those chemical weapons in that desert. But when it was all over and we searched that desert and the whole country not a chemical weapon was found. The US government lied to the people to have us back their screwed decission to go over to Iraq and own them. Another example is the attack of 9/11. The government knew of the threat of a terrorist attack almost years before the actual attack. What did they do? They ignored it. Then after the attack happened out came the black magic marker and they covered all the documented stuff with it. Now if thats what you call doing a great job then hell yea they are rocking in Washington.

Something else about Iraq and the US government. The US government decided that the US should train the people of Iraq in the art of war and combat. Why even get involved in such things? Train them how to stop war and avoid combat. Instead they put the gun in the mans hand and told him shoot that target. The whole time the Iraq people were imagineing that the target was an American Soldier.

Human nature is to kill each other one way or another. Its in our being to try and out do the other in whatever means possible. Reguardless of the end result.

Edited by Shane, 18 July 2004 - 05:22 AM.

[Dc]

They lied to the people of the US about Saddam having all those chemical weapons in that desert. But when it was all over and we searched that desert and the whole country not a chemical weapon was found.

they are only human, they made a mistake, get over it, sadam is gone so its ok.

The US government lied to the people to have us back their screwed decission to go over to Iraq and own them.

what are you talking about exactly?

The government knew of the threat of a terrorist attack almost years before the actual attack.

i personally dont think so, show me proof.

Why even get involved in such things?

we have a problem, we like to help people with freedom stuff. maybe your right and we should stop that.

The whole time the Iraq people were imagineing that the target was an American Soldier.

are you a mind reader now?



basically i dissagree with everything you say, and it wasnt thoughouly thought out.



edit: i dont know how to work the stupid coding crap so leave me alone.
edit: nvm i got it to work.

Edited by Dc, 18 July 2004 - 06:11 AM.

[Lich]

Sits down and shakes his head. I really dont want to do this..


I am a vet of three wars the first iraq, Bosnia and Kosavo and before any one says that america never classified Bosnia or kosovo as a war if you are being shot at its a war even if the Us doesnt name it that. I also had the unliucky advanrage of being in the pentigon on sept 11. (my reasoning for putting this is in so you see that i am not an american hater I was actually a patriot who fought for my land.)

I agreed with the first war on Iraq it was to free a land other than Iraq itself. But i do not agree with this one and here is why.


Sadam was an evil man to HIS own country, the united states is not the Civil war warriors for other lands. The United states does all these great things for other lands but ignores the most important part of it self its people.

In the United states when you work if you are lucky enough to find a job that has benifits which most are not because you were to poor to go to school or for what ever reason you did not. You recieve two weeks usally unpaid vacation there are some exceptions, one day a month you can call sick leave again unpaid there are some exceptions. Your monthly income (Using a ambaltory paramedic as a base since that was the job i did before i moved back to germany with my wife) is Usally by the hour (again with a few exceptions) and usally comes to about 2000 dollars a month.

Normal living in the US(living two ours from washington dc) a three bedroom house 900. dollars a month if you live near a major city where you can find work. Water bill every three month 210 dollars electric 150 dollars a month, the car to get back and forth to work 250 dollars a month the insurance anywhere from 200 to 300 a month. this doesnt count the gas because it depends on the car. telephone Unlimted LD and local with unlimited internet 85 dollars a month. food 500 dollars a month for a family with two children. Total so far 2295 and you still have not added your health insurance you still have not added going out at all. You still have not added alot of other things.

The US has no legislation that tells employers you have to provide this. Our Minum wage is to low to even have a normal life at all. As an Amb tech made 12 dollars an hour. I could be fired on the whim of my boss.

In germany I make about the same with less work the laws state that you have to have enough money to pay for the basics of life. But you are not allowed to be over worked.

The US and What ever president in office need to stop worrying about the rest of teh world and worry about its own people. To do anything in the world no matter what it says the US needs alliances to simply survive or it costs to much money and you have what has happened right now. My retirement from the Us army used to actually be something and help with my life. Now the dollar is so low when compared to all the other forms of money in the world it means nothing.

Iraq is free great grand. But the people of the United states are suffering everyday
for Lies of weapons that were not there. Bush has proven himself a Liar and untrustworthy. He blames it on intelegence he recieved. But in the end it is he must be held responsable. Just as Blair was and admitted that no matter what anyone says it was his decision and his mistake.

[Vodka]

Uhm, Bush sucks... Vote Tadpole!

[Cule]

it allways surprises me how good place finland is to live as no one has to pay anything for a basic education ... and if your parents are poor and cant give you the "head start" to your life our superior social security system gives you the "head start" ... as in my case ... after the basic education the most schools and the school i will go you dont have to pay anything but the books and i even get them free as i dont have anybody supporting me ... our social security doesnt pay anything for me right now as im working atm so i can pay the stuff myself but when i go back to study they will as i said pay the books, my rent and electric bill all i have to pay is my phone bill, internet, clothes, food and the little stuff.

if you get unemployed you get about 300 euros a month to your basic needs but you must search for a job during this time otherwise you dont get anything ...

its funny that all the east border of our country is with russia one of the most corrupted countries in the world and finland is the most less corrupted countries in the world ( thanks to our veterans who pushed back the russian invasion back in ww2 quite an achievement from such a small country )

now ill just enjoy the warm summer of our country and wait for the coming winter the only bad thing here.

[Thunderja]

Not really. Most of what you here that is 'bad' in America is propaganda.

Most of what you hear that is "GOOD" is propaganda...

I'm sure alot is good about America apart from every backward inbred redneck hick and any ghetto scum been able to get a gun and buy bullets easier than it takes to buy a plastic lighter gun in New Zealand.

Same as Lich said, here no matter how poor you are you will allways be provided the basics of life. (unless you are a total retarded drug addict with 75 kids and a ruptured spleen) If you are sick your healthcare will be provided without insurance. If you are injured at work you will be paid 75% of your wage untill you recover... Free education... it's nuts hot!

Bush means well I think, he is a retard but he gets the job done and does not moose around... and 4 more years of "Bushisms" can only be good for a laugh.

But at the end of the day, boats came from England and Europe and founded a country of freedom and prosperity.... Yea I hear Canada is great .

Late typo soz

<Note may not give a nuts>

[PureMourning]

Here's what I think:

The Founding Fathers were cool and everything, but all the following presidents were poopsters.

Edited by PureMourning, 18 July 2004 - 03:54 PM.

[two]

man, i just love middle america. always have a weird, almost irrational view on most things.

let's start locally.
first, bush screwed up with the tax rebate after our national surplus in the clinton years. this idiotic manuever was great in theory, horrible in practice. it did not stimulate the economy as planned, and as a result social programs were cut and taxes were lowered to make up for the loss in economic growth. this did not work, and with more people being unemployed with less social programs, our economy was looking dismal. all of this happened before 9/11. ok, so in almost a quarter of a presidential term, bush and associates turned our lowest unemployment record and first ever economic surplus around to the usual debt and job seeking endeavors we're used to.
the economy is just starting to turn around now, but there hasn't been enough turnaround to make up for the first set of lost jobs; the last article i read was about a week and a half ago, saying bush needed to gain 3/4/5 million more jobs to attain the employment rate set when he took office.

i'm sure he honestly wants to protect america from terror. he just sold the war on iraw totally wrong. i want those responsable for 9/11. to a point, we have taken out much of the talaban and other subsidiary mini regimes throughout Afghanistan, and really punished that country and liberated (americans love that word) soime oppressed people in the meantime. what i don't like is how he tried to spin sadam into the whole mess. i don't know who in his cabinet thought this was a good idea, but trying to turn sadam into a world terror that needed imediate removal was pretty odacious, especially before presenting the idea to the public and letting us communicate with our representatives, and basically getting a feel for how america felt about the idea. who's to say the decision to invade iraq would go one way or the other, i just didn't like how he replaced osama with sadam (an extremely difficult target with a fairly easy target to acquire and punish) in the 9/11 shadow.
also, i don't know if it was an intelligence thing, but some books released by former aides reported that bush heavily stressed sdam's involvement without substantial justification. and i hate to ask the question, where are the WMD? it's great that we liberated (love that word) the iraqi people, and are placing a new governement (read US super-friendly-so-share-some-oil-with-me government) into the works, but i didn't like the way it was done, nor the timing it took place either. north korea posed a much larger threat, one of those reasons being that they were testing nuclear weapons. we knew they had them, but we focused on the middle east where we knew we could justify our invasion that we despereatley wanted to do.
but it wasn't all about oil, at least i'd like not to think so. if you read any history book, the economy is almost always stimulated by war. war makes our economy go boom. so i think the push for war, er, military offensive was a dual edged sword in satisfying public 9/11 justice, getting more of an influence in opec, decreasing terror threats, and stimulating our economy at the same time. that's a quad-edged sword, but you get the idea.

as for national social subjects, such as abortion and gay union.marriage, it's more of an emotional and perosnal area that needs to be lloked at objectively. a lot of people look at these topics as disgusting, unnatural, or just plain wrong. that's fine, believe what you want to, but are they fair?
religious institutions recieve huge tax breaks, so they can have more money to celebrate their religion and spread their good word. this includes catholic churches, jewish temples, muslim mosques, buddhist temples, even satanic religions, and any other religion. if you can convince the government you have a religion, the government must recognize it and give it the same tax breaks as it does to other, more established religions. remember that hale bop guy who said there was a spaceship behind hally's comet, and that the only way to get up there was to kill yourself? roughly 30 people killed themselves for this cult. it was approved as a distinct religion, as it should have been, and recieved tax breaks. a lot of people would say, "that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. how could anyone believe that?" well they do, and some muslims might have the same view of mormonism, or even christianity. the point is even though people will have incredably ridiculous beliefs, the government (not necessarily you yourself), must give them the same respect, and rights (read tax breaks) that the others recieve.
now that we got that out of the way, what if some groups of people recieve tax breaks because they believe in heterosex marriage? the government says, "cool. we'll give you a tax break" what if some groups of people recieve tax breaks because they believe in homosex marriage? the government says, "cool. we'll give you a tax break. wait, you're two dudes? that's gross. no way, you guys can live together and be gay, but you can't get a tax break." you don't have to call it marriage (which is stupid becuase marriage is a sacred term used by religions, some of which have always allowed gay marriage [buddhism]; not to mention there was this clause in the constitution about the seperation of church and state), call it civil unuion or whatever and just give them a tax break.

and the population level is a weird topic to bring up. abortion has been around since the clinton years, so why is it harming the pop now? and is a low pop a bad thing? england has a low pop and they have one of the strongest currencies around. and all abortion should be illegal except for immediate death of the parents? that's really not well thought out. what about occasions of rape? you think a 14 year old girl should be forced to have a child? i agree that the child should be aborted if both mother and child will perish, but this assessment should be done as early as possible. i believe the 2nd trimester cut off is the best way to go. that's when brain waves begin to be detected, and once a child starts to develope a cognition process, then it is officially "alive". anytime before such birthcontrol and the morning after pill could be termed as child murder, in that there is no difference between the zygotes uopon conception to the 2nd trimester.

wow, i've said a lot, and most of it was bush bashing, which was not what i wanted to do. yeah, kerry is pretty weak sauce on a lot of issues, but i believe he is the lesser of two evils. also, i think the dems have a more appropriate team to deal with the aftermath of the middle east, a more restrained approach after the republicans muscle. adn their approach to the economy was phenominally last time they were in power, so let's let them have a go at it again. and the acquisition of edwards was a key move, i really like his charisma and down to earth roots appeal. he's a charmer.

so go sunshine boys, lick bush and turnip cheney in november

[Shane]

[quote name='Dc' date='Jul 18 2004, 12:00 AM'][quote name='shane' date='Jul 17 2004, 10:17 PM']They lied to the people of the US about Saddam having all those chemical weapons in that desert. But when it was all over and we searched that desert and the whole country not a chemical weapon was found.[/quote]
they are only human, they made a mistake, get over it, sadam is gone so its ok.[/quote]I agree that Saddam needed removal from his position. Problem is that the US steps into others problems to solve them when we cant even solve our own problems. As for the government making a mistake, they are in the position to NOT make those types of mistakes. They dont care about making those mistakes and as I said above they are only out to make themselves look good.
[quote name='Dc' date='Jul 18 2004, 12:00 AM'][quote name='shane' date='Jul 17 2004, 10:17 PM']The US government lied to the people to have us back their screwed decission to go over to Iraq and own them. [/quote]
what are you talking about exactly?[/quote]Read all of it, not part of the sentence. The government lied to the people of the US about things Saddam had (chemical weapons etc).
[quote name='Dc' date='Jul 18 2004, 12:00 AM'][quote name='shane' date='Jul 17 2004, 10:17 PM']The government knew of the threat of a terrorist attack almost years before the actual attack. [/quote]
i personally dont think so, show me proof.[/quote][quote name='shane' date='Jul 17 2004, 10:17 PM']Then after the attack happened out came the black magic marker and they covered all the documented stuff with it.[/quote]I would love to show you proof if I could. How can I produce proof when they hide it. I will have to hunt this down and see if I can find where it was reported that they covered up the intelligence information about the 9/11 attack.
[quote name='Dc' date='Jul 18 2004, 12:00 AM'][quote name='shane' date='Jul 17 2004, 10:17 PM']Why even get involved in such things?[/quote]
we have a problem, we like to help people with freedom stuff. maybe your right and we should stop that.[/quote]As I said above we need to worry more about our own problems first than others.
[quote name='Dc' date='Jul 18 2004, 12:00 AM'][quote name='shane' date='Jul 17 2004, 10:17 PM']The whole time the Iraq people were imagineing that the target was an American Soldier.[/quote]
are you a mind reader now?[/quote]Nope, never claimed to be a mind reader. But with a little common sense and time you can read people and their actions like a book. We trained them and years later they used what we taught them against us. Dont have to be a mind read to know this, you just need to be able to see and read.
[quote name='Dc' date='Jul 18 2004, 12:00 AM']basically i dissagree with everything you say, and it wasnt thoughouly thought out.[/quote]It has been thought on for years. I have watched this all unfold since 9/11 and even before (not the war with Iraq but the government being liars and the like).

[Penguin]

hmm.... I've been out of this a little to long unfortunatly, but let me try to make a few key points:

We went to iraq because the people were oppressed. We went to iraq because they ignored a numerous ammount of u.n. resolutions. We went to iraq because they couldn't account for the tons and tons of biological weapons saddam ADMITTED TO HAVING.
(Oh yeah and we did find some chemical weapon over there, can't remember what it was atm.)

Next, the economy is in great shape and there are plenty of jobs around if you actually look.

/t shane would you please elaborate on "our own problems"

Also, osama wasn't replaced by saddam, they are still looking for osama. It just so happens that they found saddam first because osama has a lot more hiding places.

and for all you people complaining about not being able to afford "blank", get off your ass and work

[Shera]

Our supreme court is trash, I mean, legalizing gay marriage, that's just gross.

Another problem is that our population is failing.  I blame it on abortion, millions killed each year.  It's gross and evil.

The US supreme court did NOT legalize gay marriage. Read the actual ruling that they made. I'm sure you can google it.

Also the population decrease you are talking about is doubfully because of abortion but rather because as many as 20% of the "baby boomer" generation made the choice not to have children. So if you think about it, 1 in 5 people in that generation decided not to have kids, that would more then explain the falling pop. numbers.

Personally I think Bush is an idiot. Sure he's done some good things but also many many bad things as well. Bottom line I think he lets his personal bias and feelings rule him too much. He is the president of the united states, not the president of bushville. If I was one of his advisors I'd whack him upside the head and tell him that he needs to remember that his constituents are not all exactly like him, that other people do believe differently and he is supposed to be representing the entire American people!

On the whole abortion issue there are many reasons that sometimes an abortion is neccesary that Bush does not take into account when he talks about banning it. Yes he talks about when the health of the baby and the mom is in danger. However what if they find out that the baby has no brain? It has happened before, that a baby had only a brain stem, which would enable it to live, but what kind of life would it have with no brain? What about a tubal pregnancy? What about if a woman is raped? I could go on with more reasons that I have thought of for why I do not think abortions should be banned.

[two]

no, we went to war for the sake of terrorism. the gop is stating hindsight that we went to war for the liberation of oppressed people. but if you look at the facts, the bush admin at the begining of the hwole ordeal said that iraw was an immediate threat on the us, the proof being they had wmds. we got tony blair's backing because he too believed there ewre wmd, and was pretty much the leading reason why he supported our invasion. reading some english newspapers while i was there a week ago, blair is coming out saying that the might have to face there were never any wmds, and that he possibly may have been misinformed/made a mistake. the bush admin put a twist on it, saying our parogative was to oust sadam for warcrimes all this time, a completely different story from two years ago.

and look at the employment on a national level, not just locally. esp in MO and ohio and other midwest states, a lot of factories are cutting back on jobs, and on the coasts many service companies are outsourcing to cut costs (pick up the latest newsweek, they got some good articles in there explaining what/how this is happeneing). also look at the national figures of unemployment rates. it's hard to simply get off your couch and get a job when the only openings are three towns away, and the 1,000 other people who just got laid off from the same factory are going to be competing for those jobs as well.

and you're missing the point on the osama sadam switcharoo. sadam was put into the limelight BECAUSE he was an easy catch. instead of shooting for the little bird in the distance, we decided to go after a much easier target, like the side of a barn. we have much more intelligence, and the situation in iraq was so that we could nab him in 2.5 years tops...and we did. if this isn't so, why would the gov stress the importance of catching a man who killed his own people over the importance of catching a man who killed our own people?

and yeah, sadam had some chem weapons, i don't think it was mustard gas, but it was something else. the thing is the amount of chem weapons that were there. there wan't enough to create as much death/disaster as the admin had built it up to be. these were not weapons of mass distruction. they don't exist. this mistake can't be chalked up to human proponency to err, if you screw up and american lives are lost, either a change in policy or change of office needs to result.

[Penguin]

Rape does not constitute murdering an innocent person. If the woman can not support the baby financialy or what-not, adoption.

and a baby having no brain is an extremely odd uncommon off the wall unreasonable argument roflmao

edit: just saw two's post

Yes at the time we did believe he was a threat because he CLAIMED to have a bunch of chemical/biological weapons. But it isn't like he didn't have time to disantle them and hide them with all the time we spent deliberating.

Edited by Penguin, 18 July 2004 - 08:26 PM.

[Mec]

Look, many places in rest of the world are being terrorized.

The US wasn't...

..until 9/11.

9/11 killed thousands of american citizens. In order to prevent a similar catasrophe from happening, we need to eliminate terrorist groups that pose a thread.

Saddam was breaking several UN regulations about chemical weapons inspections. THerefore, he was believed to have chemical weapons and therefore he posed a threat to the United States, not to mention he was a cruel and ruthless dictator.

Is it BAD that we removed from Saddam's office. Do you wish we had not? If you do, say that to a kurd who lived in Iraq.

Now about the pen, how can you prove that there's a black magic marker? Prove they were covered up for me, hmm?

Millions of babies are being murdered, I blame the loss of population of THIS. Murder! Not only is this evil and immoral, but it's harming the country. Blame it on the baby boomers if you want, but MILLIONS, hear that? MILLIONS of babies are being murdered!

Now, they want to get rid of much immigration. Bye bye US!

[Mec]

man, i just love middle america. always have a weird, almost irrational view on most things.

let's start locally.
first, bush screwed up with the tax rebate after our national surplus in the clinton years. this idiotic manuever was great in theory, horrible in practice. it did not stimulate the economy as planned, and as a result social programs were cut and taxes were lowered to make up for the loss in economic growth. this did not work, and with more people being unemployed with less social programs, our economy was looking dismal. all of this happened before 9/11. ok, so in almost a quarter of a presidential term, bush and associates turned our lowest unemployment record and first ever economic surplus around to the usual debt and job seeking endeavors we're used to.
the economy is just starting to turn around now, but there hasn't been enough turnaround to make up for the first set of lost jobs; the last article i read was about a week and a half ago, saying bush needed to gain 3/4/5 million more jobs to attain the employment rate set when he took office.

i'm sure he honestly wants to protect america from terror. he just sold the war on iraw totally wrong. i want those responsable for 9/11. to a point, we have taken out much of the talaban and other subsidiary mini regimes throughout Afghanistan, and really punished that country and liberated (americans love that word) soime oppressed people in the meantime. what i don't like is how he tried to spin sadam into the whole mess. i don't know who in his cabinet thought this was a good idea, but trying to turn sadam into a world terror that needed imediate removal was pretty odacious, especially before presenting the idea to the public and letting us communicate with our representatives, and basically getting a feel for how america felt about the idea. who's to say the decision to invade iraq would go one way or the other, i just didn't like how he replaced osama with sadam (an extremely difficult target with a fairly easy target to acquire and punish) in the 9/11 shadow.
also, i don't know if it was an intelligence thing, but some books released by former aides reported that bush heavily stressed sdam's involvement without substantial justification. and i hate to ask the question, where are the WMD? it's great that we liberated (love that word) the iraqi people, and are placing a new governement (read US super-friendly-so-share-some-oil-with-me government) into the works, but i didn't like the way it was done, nor the timing it took place either. north korea posed a much larger threat, one of those reasons being that they were testing nuclear weapons. we knew they had them, but we focused on the middle east where we knew we could justify our invasion that we despereatley wanted to do.
but it wasn't all about oil, at least i'd like not to think so. if you read any history book, the economy is almost always stimulated by war. war makes our economy go boom. so i think the push for war, er, military offensive was a dual edged sword in satisfying public 9/11 justice, getting more of an influence in opec, decreasing terror threats, and stimulating our economy at the same time. that's a quad-edged sword, but you get the idea.

as for national social subjects, such as abortion and gay union.marriage, it's more of an emotional and perosnal area that needs to be lloked at objectively. a lot of people look at these topics as disgusting, unnatural, or just plain wrong. that's fine, believe what you want to, but are they fair?
religious institutions recieve huge tax breaks, so they can have more money to celebrate their religion and spread their good word. this includes catholic churches, jewish temples, muslim mosques, buddhist temples, even satanic religions, and any other religion. if you can convince the government you have a religion, the government must recognize it and give it the same tax breaks as it does to other, more established religions. remember that hale bop guy who said there was a spaceship behind hally's comet, and that the only way to get up there was to kill yourself? roughly 30 people killed themselves for this cult. it was approved as a distinct religion, as it should have been, and recieved tax breaks. a lot of people would say, "that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. how could anyone believe that?" well they do, and some muslims might have the same view of mormonism, or even christianity. the point is even though people will have incredably ridiculous beliefs, the government (not necessarily you yourself), must give them the same respect, and rights (read tax breaks) that the others recieve.
now that we got that out of the way, what if some groups of people recieve tax breaks because they believe in heterosex marriage? the government says, "cool. we'll give you a tax break" what if some groups of people recieve tax breaks because they believe in homosex marriage? the government says, "cool. we'll give you a tax break. wait, you're two dudes? that's gross. no way, you guys can live together and be gay, but you can't get a tax break." you don't have to call it marriage (which is stupid becuase marriage is a sacred term used by religions, some of which have always allowed gay marriage [buddhism]; not to mention there was this clause in the constitution about the seperation of church and state), call it civil unuion or whatever and just give them a tax break.

and the population level is a weird topic to bring up. abortion has been around since the clinton years, so why is it harming the pop now? and is a low pop a bad thing? england has a low pop and they have one of the strongest currencies around. and all abortion should be illegal except for immediate death of the parents? that's really not well thought out. what about occasions of rape? you think a 14 year old girl should be forced to have a child? i agree that the child should be aborted if both mother and child will perish, but this assessment should be done as early as possible. i believe the 2nd trimester cut off is the best way to go. that's when brain waves begin to be detected, and once a child starts to develope a cognition process, then it is officially "alive". anytime before such birthcontrol and the morning after pill could be termed as child murder, in that there is no difference between the zygotes uopon conception to the 2nd trimester.

wow, i've said a lot, and most of it was bush bashing, which was not what i wanted to do. yeah, kerry is pretty weak sauce on a lot of issues, but i believe he is the lesser of two evils. also, i think the dems have a more appropriate team to deal with the aftermath of the middle east, a more restrained approach after the republicans muscle. adn their approach to the economy was phenominally last time they were in power, so let's let them have a go at it again. and the acquisition of edwards was a key move, i really like his charisma and down to earth roots appeal. he's a charmer.

so go sunshine boys, lick bush and turnip cheney in november

You think Kerry is stronger? Why?

Tell me what he stands for, if I had a million dollars, I'd give a million dollars to one who could tell me that.

Oh, and abortion should be looked at 'emotionally'?
Should murder be looked at 'emotionally'?

How did me spin Saddam into the whole mess?

1. Saddam was though to have Woms(weapons of mass destruction). Even ask Clinton!
2. Saddam is a terrorist.
3. Saddam is a threat to the US.


The low economy is mostly due to Clinton and his poor management. Oh, and I think he 'took out the black magic marker', but I don't have the information to prove it. MOST of the media (70% at least), supports the democrats, so you never heard about the bad stuff during the Clinton era. Then, it suddenly all pops up when Bush comes to office.

Kerry stands for nothing, but many democrat representater dudes (Tom Daschle, Richard Gephart) stand for immoral things like murder(abortion), gay marriage.

Marriage is the joining of a man and a woman who leave their families to live together and who (should) bring forth children. Gay marriages just don't work that way.

Look, it's not natural, it's incorrect, it doesn't work, therefore.

Why are the democrats stronger? Why? Bush says things like "strategery"

Kerry says things like "I'm a racist", and then
"No I'm not!".

--Mecrenary of Q