38 replies to this topic

[Eternyte]

Posted by Pandilex.

To further improve the balance of classes in Nightmist, I'd like everyone who visits this forum to post, sensibly, what changes they believe should be made to paladins. How are they overpowered? How are they underpowered?

I'd like information in great detail, and I'd also like to know how you think they weigh up against the other classes. Which other classes are more powerful? Why?

I need to know how I should change the class to improve it further. To make it easier, I'm asking everyone who has played or played againsit a paladin to post their opinions.


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To structure this thread better, I would like people to use bullet points to state each piece of information clearly.

If you agree or disagree with another person, simply state that you disagree with [this statement] because ____

If you don't stick to this I will delete your posts, regardless of their contents, because I need to be able to read the information easily, and it makes it much easier when I can see clearly which suggestions are favoured by the majority.

Edited by Eternyte, 21 February 2004 - 02:59 PM.

[Chewbob]

Eternyte, on Feb 21 2004, 09:27 AM, said:

what changes they believe should be made to clerics. How are they overpowered? How are they underpowered?

I think it's best to discuss what changes are best made to paladins in the paladin class discussion

[World]

- When they cast holy might it needs to affect them a bit more.
- Paladins shouldn't be able to equip blade of time.
- New spell needed, something like holy bolt, would do a bit of offensive damage, not to much thou, would mainly be used to attack characters with low wisdom and high dexterity.

[Crane]

Offensive spells are not really appropriate for Paladins because, in my opinion, they are support warriors, attacking with swords but healing and enhancing themselves and their comrades.

Most people are probably tired of hearing this by now, but Paladins miss too much, even with Divine Prayer cast on themselves. Paladins cause nowhere near as much damage as Fighters and Berserkers, and that is how it should be, but making them miss very frequently I feel is a bit far.

To get to the point, these are the main changes that I feel should be made to Paladins:

> They miss and fizzle less often.
> Armour has more of an effect (even if only partially blocking).
> Should be able to cast Divine Prayer on other players.

[Ace]

If anyone raises a paladin, they know that they are not easy to train. They have to level in the same way's as fighters, until they get aid. At that point, it is solely demonic soldiers. =/

-NEED BETTER RACE
-Need more spells and/or an offensive spell?


This is no easy process, and as any good paladin knows, You don't train unless you strongly believe in your stats.

Now, getting to my point, The only two current classes that can make paladins are humans and halflings. The Human stats are practically taken up, and 18 strength is too low for a pally.

So I was wondering, what do you think about letting elves and/or half-elves to be paladins? However, this wouldn't really solve the strength problem....elves having only 18 strength....so maybe if we could bump up half-elves strength to 19?

I'm just stating what I think might work

What does everyone else think?

Edited by Ace, 25 February 2004 - 02:56 PM.

[two]

wow, all this time i've been healing skellies and demonics until i got aid, and doing the same until i go into the desert. silly me, training too smrat. but yeah, pallys do take tlc, and you definitely don't want to invest to much time into a poopy paly.

but the elf or half/elf idea has been talked about, and it's been decided they would get too much mp. a pally already gets crazy mana, almost to the point where it's too much. a dwarf pally might be good, but then you might piss off all those role playing kiddies who say, "it's just crazy to make a dwarf a pally!! they're supposed to be fighter and you can't triple stam a double stamp oh yadda yadda yadda!"

i really like chris' post on that pally's should get more stam a little quicker. it'd be also nice to cast holy speed on others.

[iggy]

two, on Feb 25 2004, 06:45 PM, said:

it'd be also nice to cast holy speed on others.

/start casting rf+holy speed on his zerker
fear me!

[Bun]

Ace, on Feb 25 2004, 02:53 PM, said:

If anyone raises a paladin, they know that they are not easy to train. They have to level in the same way's as fighters, until they get aid. At that point, it is solely demonic soldiers. =/

-NEED BETTER RACE
-Need more spells and/or an offensive spell?


This is no easy process, and as any good paladin knows, You don't train unless you strongly believe in your stats.

Now, getting to my point, The only two current classes that can make paladins are humans and halflings. The Human stats are practically taken up, and 18 strength is too low for a pally.

So I was wondering, what do you think about letting elves and/or half-elves to be paladins? However, this wouldn't really solve the strength problem....elves having only 18 strength....so maybe if we could bump up half-elves strength to 19?

I'm just stating what I think might work

What does everyone else think?

they have the best race in game .......... n o need to give them any more

[afireinside]

World, on Feb 22 2004, 09:49 AM, said:

- Paladins shouldn't be able to equip blade of time.

Not equip the bot are you mad it's hard enough to hit for a decent amount with a paladin they NEED to be able to equip it to even pose any threat

[DragonHeart]

paladins do need at least one more race,if you look at it,all of the other classes can be around 4 races,paladins can only be 2,and like everyone has said,their hit rate needs to be bumped up a bit

[green_mantis]

paladins should really have a much stronger weapon. and i think that they should affect undead/evil creatures in some way as the entire reason for a paladin's existance is to fight evil wherever it exists.

[DragonHeart]

i think if Half-Elves can be Berserkers,shouldn't they be able to be paladins as well? just a thought

[Primal_Whisperer]

Elves and half-Elves should be able to be pallys

[Opie]

Alright, here's the deal. Pally's are extremely underpowered, and i believe that anybody who started with one would agree with me. The thing is, to completely understand pally's you would have to read a Dungeon's and Dragons handbook, because they are a little odd. They are 110% good, they are holy soldiers, and they can use any weap known to man, all in all, they kick butt. but here in NM alot of people have mixed feelings about pally's, they are good healers, but clerics are better, they are good fighters, but fighters are better. here are a few thing i do believe alot of people agree on however:
-Pally's need an offensive spell, at least against undead, and the most popular idea seems to be holy bolt.
-Pally's could use a better final weapon, but considering they can equip the Cobalt Staff, it doesn't really matter
-more races that can be a pally, dwarves are rarely pally's, but they can be
-Less misses/fizzles
Now of course there are going to be people that are set in their ways that are going to disagree with everything i say just because they are pkers, and if they find a threat to their zerkers they'll cry, but that's what this discussion is all about (i'm not complaining about pkers, because if i had they power ur dang right i'd be a pker lol) oh, PS, Of course pallys should be able to use the BOT, why shouldn't they?!?

[Rappy_Ninja]

something with 26 base like the zerkers new wep


rest is Fine

Edited by Rappy_Ninja, 09 March 2004 - 04:37 AM.

[The_Final_Climax]

Never really thought my pally missed alot(Its a level 26 human.) But the damage is rather low. The only time I'm somewhat happy with attacks is when I'm fighting a zerk, and even then..but. I really think thats all that needs some work, every aspect otherwise seems about right.

[Zap]

I agree with The_Final_Climax. Pally's are perfect in my opinion except physical attacks which are rather weak.

[Penguin]

Opie, on Mar 7 2004, 10:17 PM, said:

The thing is, to completely understand pally's you would have to read a Dungeon's and Dragons handbook, because they are a little odd.

hmm... I was under the impression this was NIGHTMIST

[Penguin]

Zap, on Mar 26 2004, 05:47 AM, said:

Pally's are perfect in my opinion except physical attacks which are rather weak.

thats not what it said in the Dungeon's and Dragons handbook.....

edit: wasn't real sure on the double quote thing so I 2x posted

Edited by Penguin, 27 March 2004 - 03:23 AM.

[ice_cold]

Ace, on Feb 25 2004, 02:53 PM, said:

If anyone raises a paladin, they know that they are not easy to train. They have to level in the same way's as fighters, until they get aid. At that point, it is solely demonic soldiers. =/

-NEED BETTER RACE
-Need more spells and/or an offensive spell?


This is no easy process, and as any good paladin knows, You don't train unless you strongly believe in your stats.

Now, getting to my point, The only two current classes that can make paladins are humans and halflings. The Human stats are practically taken up, and 18 strength is too low for a pally.

So I was wondering, what do you think about letting elves and/or half-elves to be paladins? However, this wouldn't really solve the strength problem....elves having only 18 strength....so maybe if we could bump up half-elves strength to 19?

I'm just stating what I think might work

What does everyone else think?

giving half elves 19 str makes them 19 20 19 19 19 20 that makes hem real balanced

[Crane]

If half-elves have their maximum stats bumped up to 19 20 19 19 19 20, the humans will become obsolete (wow, that sounded genocidal!)

[The_Final_Climax]

Crane, on Mar 27 2004, 10:50 AM, said:

If half-elves have their maximum stats bumped up to 19 20 19 19 19 20, the humans will become obsolete (wow, that sounded genocidal!)

Dirty half-elfs will never make humans obsolete. -mumbles.- I don't think staff would scratch humans off the list. But, just so everyone knows: I'm for the prevention and preservation of the human race. Yep.

[Crane]

I meant that humans are 19 19 19 19 19 19 and if half-elves' strength is bumped up one, then half-elves will have consistently equal or better stats than humans.

[Opie]

yeah yeah yeah, this is nightmist, but Nightmist is D&D based, that's why its called a Multi-user DUNGEON. Wow, i sound like a freakin geek! nvm, whats dungeons and dragons?

[Bean]

Something that can have a possible dex of 27 should be hit.... well never. But thats pretty overpowered. so I would say pallies need to be hit TONS LESS with holy speed on.... and miss less with it on too.

Other than that.... I cant see anything really wrong with pallies, they are pretty damn wicked

[Charon]

Granted I do not believe half-elves have a true bonus, but actually their stats are pretty good as they are ^^ But that doesn't belong here, that must belong on some other thread.
Plus, ice_cold had the lil' "rolleyes" emoticon which suggested he was kidding... its true. Half elves would not be at all balanced with the stats he suggested- which was exactly his point ^^;; So enough with the genocide

Elves... should not become paladins. Elves, at least by my somewhat flawed mythological theory, are long-living, magical/natural creatures. That is why they have good wisdom, good intelligence (from the long lives) and it is why they have lesser strength.
Elves have 18 str... that's perfectly fine.

There are enough elves in nightmist. Don't let them overtake the realms of the Paladin as well

As for the Paladin being underpowered... I use my paladin frequently, and though it may not have perfect stats (far from it actually) I do not consider it underpowered in the slightest.
Paladins ARE NOT fighters... Fighters devote their lives to fighting, so of course a fighter shall be better at fighting than a paladin
Likewise paladins ARE NOT clerics ... Clerics devote their lives to healing (and from my experience attack pretty poorly), so of course a cleric shall be better at healing than a paladin (and a paladin better at fighting than a cleric)

By D&D rules (okay, maybe not for paladins, and maybe not for classes in this way, but bear with me) people who choose to multi-class their characters when they have the correct level or ability or whatever get the chance do so with experience detriments.
And I'm sure you wouldn't want to level that 110% paladin with perfect fighting and healing abilities if you knew it'd take you 50% more experience to get it to each level... I mean OUCH! Think of the lv29-30 gap by the time you reach it...

A Paladin spends part of its time fighting and part of its times healing, therefore its expertise SHOULD be set between the two... exactly where it is.
The Paladin does not truly need an offensive spell. A paladin has a sword for offense.
And against the vile evil of the undead, heal and aid work perfectly.

Bean's right! Paladins are, pretty much

Bean, on Apr 8 2004, 01:15 AM, said:

pretty damn wicked

as they are ^^

Edited by Charon, 08 April 2004 - 01:07 AM.

[green_mantis]

Charon... In the D&D rulebook, the paladin is unable to multiclass as well as if a human multiclasses the highest level class is the preferred class so that they do not take an experience penalty.
however a gnome being a mage and a fighter is a whole different story.

dont know if I made a point but if I did it is in there.


P.S. Pallys rock!!

[Charon]

green_mantis, on Apr 8 2004, 02:39 AM, said:

Charon... In the D&D rulebook, the paladin is unable to multiclass as well as if a human multiclasses the highest level class is the preferred class so that they do not take an experience penalty.
however a gnome being a mage and a fighter is a whole different story.

dont know if I made a point but if I did it is in there.


P.S. Pallys rock!!

There was a point there and I saw it ^^;;

Heh... well, I did say "maybe not for paladins" but I'm sure I read up on experience detriments somewhere... what about if you somehow multi-classed without having a highest level... (is that even possible?)

*digs a bigger hole for herself*

Aw, lol, now I'm going to spend ages trying to work out where I got that from... >.<

Maybe I can cling to that whole gnome-mage-fighter thing you mentioned... ;)

[Bean]

I still think holy speed should be more effective. As it is I dont think the entirety of the dex bonus really comes into effect.

[Crane]

An offensive spell will not fit for a Paladin - it is not their character to use magic for their attacks; that is the jobs of sorcerers and warlocks, i.e. Mages! As Charon put it so nicely, their blade is their offensive weapon.

Paladins hit nowhere near as hard as Fighters and Berserkers, and that is how it should be... that is made up for by their healing and enhancing spells. I still agree that Paladins should miss a bit less often, especially with Divine Prayer and Holy Speed cast upon themselves.

The main problem... races. Humans and Halflings are the only two species able to become Paladins, and many people agree that two races are too few. Elves I do not feel are appropriate for Paladins. What about Half-Elves or Gnomes?

In conclusion, apart from a small boost to the effectiveness of Dexterity and probably an extra race, Paladins do not need any major changes.