87 replies to this topic

[Fossae]

Well I have been saying that these crits are the god's of Nightmist for the past few weeks. I have been saying this because they never die and can make gold in no time. Well I was thinking that this perfect creation isn't possible because everything dies and peace can hardly ever be brought without death. I think that paci's should either be gotten rid of or changed drastically so that they can be killed easier and not make so much gold. Also that when they get hit by a pker damage should be dealt to them just as normal and that the person hitting them also gets damage.

Edited by Fossae, 12 June 2004 - 08:22 AM.

[Gaddy]

I think they've made enough gold to cause Nightmist's "economy" to be too out of wack to be repaired. It used to be that a 4k char score was held by a max of maybe 5 players, and they were the elite rich...(ignore Jen, who know's where all of that came from...before my time). Now, there is an ammount of gold in game that makes that look tiny. Also notice that much of the gold has been spend on char ammys, equipment, and there several new cobalts.

I don't know, I don't really see having a lot of gold in the economy as a huge problem, it just seems very weird....so many players in Nightmist having a lot of gold.


What most people tend to ignore- a paci makes something around 50k an hour, or that's the ammount that I am pretty sure of, I don't play them much, just checked with my arch paci killing mods for a straight hour---this is with the new 'intelligent' diety that grants basically only mana....keeps pacis from ever having to tribute gold basically.

That means that these people playing pacis actually do stay on for A LOT of time to make the gold they make. I can make 40k in 15 mins, around 140k in an hour (I get ADD and slack off and talk), on my mains (I run 6-8 when i make gold/train in zeum rather than my 12 bossing party because the lag gets high and the modern art hp is low enough to where I never am out of stam when I am on 8.).

So, a paci is more for being only one crit, but it IS only one crit, and they don't get clan chat and all that stuff as something to distract them from the fact that they're wandering around one part of an imagenary world for hours at a time. They're doing a lot to make the gold, I think making it so that they have to tribute more often would be good, but there is already so much gold from them in game....I don't know if I even see the point of messing with it anymore.

[Vodka]

Also notice that much of the gold has been spend on char ammys, equipment, and there several new cobalts.

My paci only helped me a little earning my cobalt and armory. I know how to save gold... which is how I got them. I might've been richer when I played my paci... but, I already had almost enough to buy one (a cobalt) anyways without having a paci.

What else do you expect to spend it on?

[Crane]

Also notice that much of the gold has been spend on char ammys, equipment, and there several new cobalts.

My paci only helped me a little earning my cobalt and armory. I know how to save gold... which is how I got them. I might've been richer when I played my paci... but, I already had almost enough to buy one (a cobalt) anyways without having a paci.

What else do you expect to spend it on?

Crystal Rings, a Spyglass and my clanhouse - that's what I spend it on.

[Throwback]

ash dont lie.....u know u werent near as rich when u hadnt had a paci....since they've been available look how much more you c a cobalt and items being bought...stuff is too ez to earn now..it's gay

[Fossae]

I like what you said Gad there are alot more cobalts in game which is stupid. I thought to myself for the longest time that trying to get a cobalt was to try and show off to everyone how good you were now its like who really cares if you have a cobalt. I do think staff and admin should make the game a little more difficult and maybe make them paci free as they do nothing but drag monsters to the bosses.

Edited by Fossae, 12 June 2004 - 12:19 AM.

[Charon]

peace can hardly eve be brought without death

Well that statement simply legitimises the pacifists shield and jz abilities when you think about it. A pacifist is peaceful and brings peace to others... whichever way they go about it.

The money situation is the only one I'm not qualified to talk on unfortunately.
My pacifist... is bad at making money for the simple reason it has terrible stats. And I don't play it as often anymore.

But the fact is that there is more gold in game- and it isn't only the pacifists which have it.
Monsters drop ever more gold, bosses... drop more still.
And a lot of those drops are gained by normal crits too.

I'm certain that with alts one can achieve a similar or greater amount of money to a pacifist, in the same time period.
Gaddy seems to have been saying as much.

Using just my paladin or druid (on a good day) I'm able to earn about 25-30% of what my pacifist does in, for example, the illuminated tunnels in the same time period. And thats just one crit.
Granted on many occasions someone will kill me before I get my well earned savings to the bank- but if I were an alt user theres every possiblility that not only would I have had more money, but that I would have succeeded in getting some of it to a bank, or even succeeded in getting my lost earnings back.
And as everyone insists on saying, pking is part of the game. That paladin knows it can be killed, is stupid to be on its own, and knows full well that if someone kills it and gets its money, it is its own fault.

I use my pacifist to see the side of the game which isnt about pking... its there somewhere, when you look hard enough.

What little my pacifist does earn doesn't go on myself.
Almost anyone who knows me can tell you I'm stupid for lending out the money I do to help friends. And most times I cancel the debt without ever getting repaid.
(To those of you who owe me at the moment... that admission is your ticket to escape paying me )
Anything I have left goes to holding my rank or donations to my clan.
I don't buy myself cobalts, although in honesty I've never had enough to do so. I don't buy myself armour helping rings.

You know what? With my money, I buy stupid things like museum keys...
I pay pathetic amounts of money for them, because as a pacifist I can't get them myself. And killing the mayor alone is a feat my paladin has not yet achieved when it only barely survives the trip to sarka in the first place.
Although perhaps some people do kill the mayor to get keys for their pacifists... once they get in the museum the mummy is often kill stolen- so if you want a guarantee you can get the next floor where the things you can actually kill are, thats another key you have to buy.

Yes pacifists often have more money.
Pacifists often have to pay a lot of money for things.

paci's should either be gotten rid of or changed drastically so that they can be killed easier and not make so much gold

Pacifists cant harm people intentionally, so I truly dont see why you should be able to kill them.
Perhaps their gold should be a little harder to come by... but a team of alts can legitimately make more. I dont agree with forced alt use, I don't agree with the idea of being forced to use alts to play the game, but if you want money that badly, that there is your answer.
Instead of moaning at pacifists abusing their abilities, give us another team of alts abusing their abilities, because its very rare for people to complain about them, at least not to the same extent. Why? Because its accepted among alt users that this will happen.
(Please note- this doesn't apply to all alt users, and I'm not suggesting it does, so please don't flame me ^^)

And I'm sure people can think of a better way to deal with pacifists than simply getting rid of them

I think this poll has reached it's conclusion. I can assure you that even if it were unanimous it would be unlikely that pacifists would be removed. - Pandilex

It's already been said countless times, that getting rid of them is highly unlikely to be a solution


I've seen too much of the age old pacifist arguement over the past few weeks. I think it's time people left pacifists alone and moved on to a new and/or different thing which bothers them, at least for a little while ^^


And oh yes, as an afterthought...

it's gay

I dislike that you use that as a derogatory term. It's not necessary, and I'm sure you could have found a more appropriate word if you'd actually tried.

[Charon]

I do think staff and admin should make the game a little more difficult and maybe make them paci free as they do nothing but drag monsters to the bosses.

Yes I'm double posting. Yes everyone hates a double poster

You want the game to be 'more difficult'
The game is already quite hard ^^;;
All you have to do to see that is lose that party you drag around with you.... you'll soon find the game more challenging

The paci free is unlikely to happen, and I personally wouldn't want it to.
I like pacifists.
I understand that some people think they need changing... but I like the idea. It's unique, it isn't something you see anywhere else. Pacifists don't need to be deleted. Maybe just to shut people up they should be fiddled with a little, but they don't need to be wiped from the game.

Pacifists arent the scourge of nightmist the way everyone thinks they are.

[Fossae]

Well If you would look at my starting post to this thread it states that everything dies sooner or later. If you think that since a pacifist can't physically harm someone or something that they can't be killed? They can be killed by monsters and so they should be allowed to get killed by players. I know of one god and thats him himself that created us to live, invent, go through life, and then die. So taking into consideration paci's are god's as I see in my book and they should be changed. Sorry charon what do you consider a scourge of Nightmist then? What do you consider a party that I drag around? I hardly ever get on more than 3 crits. For the past few weeks I have been training my druid and a clannies for him. So the way I'm taking it is that you looked up who I was and you went he is level thirty and has over one thousand kills he must run around in a party. Well I don't maybe when I got to a boss by myself which is rare because I go with my clannies to them.

Edited by Fossae, 12 June 2004 - 12:45 AM.

[Vodka]

ash dont lie.....u know u werent near as rich when u hadnt had a paci....since they've been available look how much more you c a cobalt and items being bought...stuff is too ez to earn now..it's gay

lol, I had nearly 4 mill on my paci. The rest I used my reg crits to get... trained/sold stuff.

[Element]

if u think selling nightmist stuff for real money unblances the game why dont ya look at what pacifist are doing to it... something needs to be done, maybe make it so they can be killed. maybe make it so they have to have jz on in order not to be killed, and maybe make it cost less mana and let them move with it,(not sure what the rate is now mana per min, but maybe half it so if they want they can train with it but its going to cost some mana) but make it so they cant just goto the museum once and come back with 1mil gold.. cause everything can be killed even good people.

[Gaddy]

Making pacifists PKable is out of the question, the entire point of them is to be non-pkable.

Make it cost more mana for them to cast DU or make their deity grant less mana, force them to tribute is what I think would make the most sense and cause them to make gold less quickly.

Why do their deitys bless them when they tribute, and not care at all when they never tribute?

[Fossae]

How about make it so they can't and have to be like clerics and take mana.

[dognapot]

jesus christ! is it that ingenius to make them unable to transfer gold? there's only so many ways....

1. the website

2. in game commands

3. dying to a monster

is it that radical? it's not like there's a practical purpose to losing your money to a monster, and there's no rationalization that justifies a pacifist's uncanny ability to accumulate wealth unhindered. they're not holy bankers, or divine money-lenders. they're a solo class right? there to accomadate those non-PvP and RP-types who felt hindered by the hack-n-slash nature of the game, right? if i'm wrong and pacifists are supposed to be nearly invulnerable money-lenders then i politely withdraw my criticisms. however, i don't recall "interfere with PvP combat with no risk!" and "make tons of money for your alts" being part of the pitch that came with pacifists.

[Gaddy]

So make it so pacis cannot buy items from other players, drop any gold, drop any items (another way to pass it would be to buy items and take them off and die and pick up with other alts)...Makes sense to me.

[Xlithan]

/nod Dognapot

[PureMourning]

I just wanna bring up a few points, correct me if I'm worng.

First, when Pacifists first EVER came into the game, and when the thread on them was creared, didn't it state that both the attacker and pacifist would lose life, not just the attacker? I'm sure it -was- like that, so why the change if so?

Also, doesn't seem fair that ONE alt can make more gold and a quicker rate than say 3-4! Even in desert.

I'm not completely anti-pacifist, but something needs to be done.

(And yes, I have an arch paci, which I rarely use, so I know).

[Bean]

When will you people learn to leave well enough alone.

So far I dont see them changing, so the only option is to deal with it until pandilex and JLH find they are bored of how the pacifist class works.

Until that time, just let the matter drop.

[Shane]

Omg, first its pacis are untouchable and pacis ruin boss runs, then its pacis are bountying their alts and transfering mass amounts of gold outta the museum. Now it is they make too much damned gold. Get over it and move on. Things change new classes come out, whoever is on the top of the mountain is bound to get pushed off sooner or later so deal with it. Why cry about it, if it pisses you off so bad that a paci is making more gold than you why dont you roll your own paci and get back to having the most gold. Stop trying to whine and cry about a class because:
1) You cant pk it
2) it is richer than you now or richer than you ever where
3) You feel its unfair that they pass though monsters you have to kill.
I mean damn, whats next? You are prolly gonna complain they have too much armor.

[Fossae]

/t Shane you must not understand I'm not complaining about them having more gold than me lol. If I posted this why would I want to create my own paci and train it up to level thirty and make gold with it? You just make no sense. If I wanted to go make gold I could but I have more important things to do than just make gold on a paci all day.

[Eternyte]

The game is already quite hard ^^;;
All you have to do to see that is lose that party you drag around with you.... you'll soon find the game more challenging

Would you mind explaining just how the game is hard?, because it is by far the easiest game I have ever played.

Level 30's have the 5th largest numbers in the game, not including level 1's. The greatest levels are 10-17 approximately. The game has been up and running for about 2 yrs and 4 months (unsure of exact details), and there are about 1090 Archmasters.

Now to me that number is rediculous, It should take a lot more experience to reach the maximum level, say about 1500mil exp. A massive amount, but definately not impossible. Anyway, back on topic:

Yes, I agree pacifists are the spawn of the devil, no matter how holy they are meant to be. Once again like alts they are abused. I took a break from Nightmist for a while. I come back to see everyone with 8-10k char scores, Pacifists with almost 2billion exp, and every newb and his cousins best friend has a cobalt.

It doesn't take very long for people to twig that an unpkable crit, who can tribute a pitance of gold for all their mana back, get granted hp/mp after every kill by their deity and that has a spell doing 110 damage at a very small mana cost, can destroy the highest gold rewarding monster in the game, which happens to be undead.

As stated above Pacifists are meant to be a solo class, but there is no way they can be totally controlled as to not aid someones alts. I think they should be removed, they've destroyed the game since their implementation. I like the idea of the class, however more structuring and thought needs to go into them before releasing them. Which appears to have been missing.

However,
I would suggest an idea I read somewhere else on the forum though. Make Pacifists so that they can only heal players, and in no way, shape or form can kill a monster, undead or otherwise. Obviously, exp for healing players for pacifists would need to be about 300 exp pod per point of damage healed (would need to be tested). You might argue that pacifists need to be able to buy items etc. I disagree, they already receive greater natural armor than any other class so I think they should play the game naked, and have no way of having any gold pass their fingers. Obviously, this would require them to always have maximum mana, which I do not forsee as a problem since healing players is the only exp they could gain. I would go so far as to suggest that they can join clans, just not parties. Also keep that they can only be logged on as a single unit.

You could argue that a pacifist could be abused by 2 people, 1 training and the paci healing they would never have to leave where they were. I would agree with this. However, Nightmist has such a seflish community there are few players who would sit on a pacifist for the sole purpose of helping others (which in my opinion is their purpose in the game).

They would also have all their spells already, like a ranger has his abilities. They just are unable to use these spells until they reach the required level.

Thoughts and Opinions please?

[Lich]

Ok for the special people who just cant figure this out here let me spell it out for you ok.


Paci's were created to balance the power out. I cant run 50 alts so you will always win. I can run one alt, so that one alt is capable of doing the same things you are with 7,8,9,10,. They were created to make the lvl of gold and places i can see the same as you the Pkers with mass of numbers.

When the day comes that they put in an alt limit where you have to fight on the same terms as those who cant log on so many more than likley they will be removed. But untill then do yourself and the rest of NM a favor.

SHUT THE HELL UP ALREADY!!!!!!! No one wants to hear you cry because you cant kill a crit. No one wants to hear your wining baby voices about its unfair. Its like listening to my 8 year old when I tell her no she cant have the candy.

You cant kill them, and they wont be removed. Deal with it! if you cant leave the game.

[dognapot]

Ok for the special people who just cant figure this out here let me spell it out for you ok.


Paci's were created to balance the power out. I cant run 50 alts so you will always win. I can run one alt, so that one alt is capable of doing the same things you are with 7,8,9,10,. They were created to make the lvl of gold and places i can see the same as you the Pkers with mass of numbers.

When the day comes that they put in an alt limit where you have to fight on the same terms as those who cant log on so many more than likley they will be removed. But untill then do yourself and the rest of NM a favor.

SHUT THE HELL UP ALREADY!!!!!!! No one wants to hear you cry because you cant kill a crit. No one wants to hear your wining baby voices about its unfair. Its like listening to my 8 year old when I tell her no she cant have the candy.

You cant kill them, and they wont be removed. Deal with it! if you cant leave the game.

that's an interesting theory there, lich.

The class is more focussed on roleplay than obtaining items and power which most of the game seems to have as its main objective.

Some people get fun from killing players and getting gold and better items, and some get fun from playing a character that can interact more and socialise

[Lich]

Its not a theory its common sence. The class was made to even the balance because if it wasnt there is no reason at all they could do the same things as someone on ten alts.

If the alt limit was in place there would be no need for them because with the safe guards that new players have right now to protect them untill they learn the game it would be more even before the killing could begin. there for the class would not be needed. But right now in this time with the rules as they are the class was needed to give newer players a way to compete with the older with better systems, better crits and better equipment and as long as someone can log on 10 plus crits and clean house getting all thet items and gold they want there will be a need for pacis.

Common sence nothing more, Instead of whineing(spelling to early) people should be asking themselves if we want them gone that bad what sacrifice should we make to get them out, and there is only one that is realistic enough to make it work one alt. then they are not needed and can be removed.

Edited by Lich, 12 June 2004 - 10:46 AM.

[Shane]

/t Shane you must not understand I'm not complaining about them having more gold than me lol. If I posted this why would I want to create my own paci and train it up to level thirty and make gold with it? You just make no sense. If I wanted to go make gold I could but I have more important things to do than just make gold on a paci all day.

No I did not miss your point at all. I read your post just like I read it all. My reply makes perfect sense. Your post came across to me as a complaint because someone has more gold than you do now. Or they have more stuff than you now. Your post sounds to me like your upset because pacis give everyone a chance to be rich as you and have as much stuff as you. Do you or the rest of the bitchers about pacis have a problem with someone else giving you a fight? Or do you just like walking up on someone and completely destroying them and they not even giving you a challenge to test your skill?

It has been this way for years, even long before pacis have entered the game. If you cant do it with 1 crit you log on another, if those 2 cant do it then here comes another and another. It all boils down to ppl being selfish and not liking the fact that everyone has a chance to be equal. As I said above it started with complaints about ppl not being able to kill pacis, then it went to pacis being able to move through monsters that everyone else had to kill, then it went to pacis transfering gold to alts and now its they make too much gold. I still ask what is next?

Maybe you should roll your own paci and lvl it up, go out and make all this gold that your complaining others are making so quickly. Why post about it, just join the crowd since that seems to be the thing in NM. Follow the leader in NM, has been that way since I started back before the reset. Stop posting about pacis being unfair and do what you normaly do, join the crowd, follow the leader. Hell even some of the TR memebers have paics now, know why? Because they knew it was usless to complain and that it would get them no where. So they sucked it up and joined the crowd and I bet most of them realised that pacis arent that bad. (I remember TR complaining about pacis when they first came out)

[Gaddy]

Ok gents, If you're going to be so adult like and tell Nightmist to grow up and think your way, at the very least go about it without being one of the most immature people posting on the thread.

Pacis make more gold than they really should be able to when no one can stop them from making it. I don't think that it means they should be kill-able, the entire point of the is not to be involved in all of the PKing bs.

They should have to tribute to their deitys---it only makes sense to me, and they should have to tribute often.


It is stupid to say that they make the gold easily though, they have to sit on 1 crit and walk around the zeum for days and days to make the millions they do, that is a lot of dedication and effort, so no one has any room to say that the players themselves aren't respectable, nightmist-wise, in any way.

The class is used more to help people kill than not to, stop counting pks by JZ for them and kills they get, that makes no sense....you're encouraging an anti-pk class to pk.


I'm tired of wasting my time talking...game doesn't always have to be how I see fit, but I wish you guys could discuss something without having to take shots at eachother every post....why do you think good threads get locked and players are ignored so often?

[Eternyte]

It has been this way for years, even long before pacis have entered the game. If you cant do it with 1 crit you log on another, if those 2 cant do it then here comes another and another.

It's about time it changed, don't you think?

As I said above it started with complaints about ppl not being able to kill pacis, then it went to pacis being able to move through monsters that everyone else had to kill, then it went to pacis transfering gold to alts and now its they make too much gold. I still ask what is next?

When so many people complain about something, does that make us all whiners, or perhaps does it show there is something wrong?

Maybe you should roll your own paci and lvl it up, go out and make all this gold that your complaining others are making so quickly.

NO!, if there is a problem, it needs to be sorted, otherwise everyone would make a druid, everyone would have a zerk with a cleric, and now everyone would have a paci? That defeats the purpose of the game, that alts destroy.


My main problem with Pacifists is that a new player joins the game. Logs on a level 1 fighter, comes to SGH, or reads forums. They see a pacifist can't be killed, and someone tells them it's the best newb crit. So, being innocent like they are they make the crit. They level it up, realising how easy it is, with no one bothering them. They then discover the barracks or the 2nd floor museum and head there. They then discover that they don't have to leave, or even use a mana crystal.

So, they concenrate on this crit for a month, and within this time they have become an Archmaster, and have 10mil gold in the bank. So they they buy 5 level 30 rangers. Then they hear a cobalt is the best wepon, so back on the paci they get and make another 10 mil gold. So in this space of 2 months, someone who abuses a paci now has 5 archmaster rangers, and a cobalt staff of the winds. Then it doesn't stop there, it just keeps going and going. It's a vicious circle which will spiral out of control.


A NEW PLAYER DOES HAVE THE CHANCE TO GET THE SAME AS OLDER PLAYERS. HOWEVER, THEY SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO CATCH UP ON 3 YRS OF PLAY IN 2 MONTHS. IT'S STUPID!!!

[Gaddy]

Pre-frikin-cisely!

I've played this game for a year and a half now, I don't own a cobalt, not that I've got a problem there, but why, if I have played for several times the ammount of time another person has played, should they be immeadiatly able to catch up the me gold, item, or crit wise in the slightest?


I came into game a year and a half ago, I started using alts when a friend helped me out (old newb), and I started sharing w/ a rl friend (Chase)---that was 5-7 months after I started. So, I had a level 26 fighter after 5-7 months of playing. Personally I don't think there is anyone in game who can truely say that they dominate me or are even actually 'better' than me in the game (at least at everything, if someone can out 3v3 me, then I'll go kill something alone they can't or something like that).

If I spend a year+ to catch up to people who have played for twice as long as me, so can new players today.

[Lich]

First it has been proven that on 6 alts in the desert you can earn exactly the same as one paci in the same or less amount of time. I know because Omni is the one who did it. Next why does a noob have the right to get the same as you. Because you are not god and just because you think you are doesn`t mean that its the truth.

Two years of play and you dont have a cobalt well gaddy if you stopped worring about your 30 plus alts and workded on one or two then maybe you would have one.

What you are not getting is that even if they spend a month working on just a paci they have spend a month on a paci.

If i spend one month working on one fighter or one ranger straight with out breaks inbetween then i could concievably have the same amount of gold and lvl. I know because that has been done. the first zerker was lvled in three days of straight play.

Why should a noob get the chance to learn the stuff its taken you two years to. because After two years you make sure that they dont even after two more years. You kill them over and over untill they want to quit. Hence the paci, hence it is made fair and you my freinds (and i did not spell it wrong i meant it that way) are put on an even balance with the new players so that they dont quit because you think you are gods.

discussion over

[Eyes in the Dark]

ok...I am adding mt two cents

I am new to this game. I have been playing only around a month and a half and yes I have a paci. So far he is level 22, higher than most of my other characters in game (aside from the present I was given). I don;t think this needs to be changed, the paci is a good class for someone who is new to the game to be able to explore and have fun with, learn how the game works, how combat, healing and everything else goes on.

I have tried running with other characters, training them up and exploring the other areas where pacis cannot go, and what happens...I get PK'd....no I am not complaining about it...I know its part of the game and I look forward to the day when I can do it myself, but this is why my levels are moving slower, there is more to worry about when you can be PK'd and I can see how it takes the fun out of it. You spend the time to explore, not knowing the area, getting your gold and someone jumps in with 8 or 9 covery thiefs and wipes you out....is this fun? no....is this part of the game...probably

Pacis should stay in game, and after all, so what if they make lots of gold? yeah you could say well they overpower the game, destroy the economy but I am sure JLH knows this or he would change it, this is his game after all and who knows what is planned. And if you know someone runs a paci and that is how they have got all the equipment, does it not make you better because you battled harder to get your equuipment?