85 replies to this topic

[Freek]

Since the end is near (lols) I figured I would put forth the effort into one final constructive post that focuses on the current problems with the game and some suggestions (that do not require coding) that could fix the current issues.

I would like for this post to go without trolling but respect and would like to see constructive, thought out debates.

I am going to list the problems (I feel) are in the game in order of importance, followed by a suggestion I have to solve the issue.



#1 35+ Leveling

I feel that leveling past 35 is the major issue with 1alt right now. As you can see most players stick to level 35 and may have 1 or 2 crits between 36-37. Why? I don't believe its the amount of grind to make the exp/gold as much as it is the hassle of trying to get the tokens after 35. When Maarten was staff he invented the 30-35 alternate system and the numbers of players who had a lvl 30+ rose very quickly. Why is there no system like this past 35? Logically, obtaining 1 token to level from 30-31 should be easier than the alternate system, yet more players seem to level using the item system because the hassle of getting players together for tokens is absurd. Not only do you have to have 8 or so people on. You have to hope they have the type of class strong enough to go or someone is on who has an extra that they can lend out. Hence why the current classes being played are the ones whom's token bosses are easiest; Paladins, Berserkers and Fighters. Token bosses also are the major reason why 1alt has generally always been split into two "major" clans. Not because that's where the player actually wants to be, but because if they are not in one of the two major clans the chances of getting a token run together is slim to none. I like the fact that 1 alt trys to push cooperation, but not when it comes to leveling your character. Yes, there is obviously already a reason to use cooperation to level (tokens being faster to obtain and easier when the players are on) but shouldn't be the only way. Maartens leveling system pre 35, allowed players to be able to keep to themselves while being able to continue to level up. He balanced it by making it more difficult and time consuming than the token system.

I believe an alternate system needs to be created for 35+. For a quick fix currently while staff come up with an alternate system, I propose letting players use the current items for 35 (feathers) + the tarnished trinkets to continue to level up. Such as: 36 = 5 crates of feathers + 1 tarnished trinket, 37 = 5 crates + 2 trinkets etc.. I know that you could change the squares in TTK to allow the golden crate of feathers to act like the current token or a different direction in the current 36+ guilds when you enter that allows you in, so that shouldn't be an issue and is a quick fix while you come up with an alternate leveling system.


#2 Reason for the grind.

Next, I feel that the grind is to extreme for the current rewards you get when you level up. Currently the only plus to leveling up is making your crit stronger. But there is no real reason to make your crit stronger. Whats the difference in what a crit can do at 36 and what it can do at 37? Nothing. Does it gain more stam? Maybe. Does it become stronger? Yes. But whats the point? I don't need to be stronger to kill the monsters i've already been grinding to level up, I don't need to be stronger so I can compete vs other players because there are no events. And I don't need to be stronger so I can down bosses, because currently its not about the bosses strength.. It's about the number of people you take to the boss. If the boss takes 8 30's logically it should take 5 or so 35+s. The issue with this is that tho the 5 35's do more damage than the 8 30's they cant compete because they need the damage to be spread out or X amount of healers. Currently there is no "real" reason to level up except to try to achieve max level, which in most games there is content in the game that requires you to be max level and yields the best rewards.

My suggestion is to create level based content 36+ to give players a real reason to level up. This content doesn't have to be extreme but should exist. There are many ways you could go about it. Such as; Making 36+ zones with high POD mobs and gold rewards or Alternate stand alone bosses in already existing areas that are level locked. Again, these areas do not need to be extreme. You could design linear areas (kinda like the Drow Blade Mage area) that have high pod mobs and gold rewards for ALL CLASSES. I would also make these areas require all different classes to complete. You could make there be Vortex Gate spots, Mobs that can only be damaged by magic/certain weapons (ex: axes) that only 1/2 classes can equip, make a death trap maze that requires a mage to cast protect to get through, forage for keys, heal to kill only etc etc.. The possibilities are endless and do not require any more coding. This would not only give players something new to do everytime they leveld up but it would also REWARD THEM FOR CO-OPING THROUGH THE AREA, instead of grinding the same picture from level 25-40.


#3 Diversity-Balance

This ties into the previous two issues, but should be mentioned. Right now we know that some classes are underplayed not because they are "bad" but because it is difficult to level them past 35.. Another reason is because of the "Work put in VS what the character is capable of". Right now the "easiest" classes to train are also the "best" classes in their roles. Why should someone level a ranger (dps) that is 5x more difficult to train than a zerk and 5x more difficult to level past 35, when a zerk out puts way more damage and is cheaper to train/equip etc? People are being "forced" into picking the current "easily" leveled classes over something they truly want to play because there is no reason to. There is no PvP so it's not like people are leveling certain classes to counter existing ones.

I would suggest what I have previously suggested and maybe class based areas 36+ so that you could get into the roleplay aspect of your class while also exploring new content.


#4 PvP

Currently there is absolutely no PvP outside of the random pk here and there, which usually involves an invis class and a couple shades. PvP is what used to drive me personally as a player. I grinded so I could become stronger so I could show off how strong my crit was. PvP is what drove diversity. Back before the game was all about what class makes exp/gold the fastest while being easy to level past 35, it was about leveling up to become stronger than your enemy. That drive (which ties into the above) is what the game is missing for me and thats why I have suggested other forms of motivation to be added to the current game.

As far as PvP goes, I would obviously suggest PvP events again.


#5 Outdated bosses.

Outdated bosses is another issue of mine, but the last on the list because I believe my major issues fixes would solve this as well.







That sums my thought process up. If you want to contribute feel free. I would suggest reading the big wall of text though, it's a good one.

[brewcrew]

supported

[Freek]

supported

You can say more than that noober.

[Sarah]

I have never seen a game that is such a grind like this one. Years to level a character to max, and little to no reward or content for doing so? Truly the only reason to level a character to max is the glory of being the first to do so. After that, then what?

I completely support and think it is far past time for relief from the grind and new content for high level characters.

An alternative leveling system for 35+ is desperately needed as well. 1-alt was intended to focus on for cooperation, but the fact is, the playerbase has not nearly enough active players as it used to. There are many solutions to this that don't require coding. Create new leveling items. New bosses that are soloable for all classes. Anything to make it possible for all classes to achieve level 40.

As for PvP, the reason there is not hardly any is because we all need each other so much to succeed, and with the penalty of deaths being so high, no one wants to take the chance of crossing another person and losing their help with bosses and leveling... Another reason for an alternative leveling system, and possibly a cap on exp loss.

Edited by Sarah, 01 October 2012 - 12:20 AM.

[Freek]

I would like to add that I am not looking for all of this to be added over night.. Except maybe the alternate 36+ lol..

But to you staffers this is what I feel should be done and it would be nice to know what you think or if you plan on ever doing it/currently working on it. Us as players can only make assumptions based on the past and what knowledge ya'll give us.

[Cruxis]

Supported.

1. Alternate leveling system for 35+, so obvious. Does more need be said?

Why do some coli bosses even heal while some don't? If none of them even healed, this wouldn't be an issue. It'd still be hella easier with more people, but do-able by yourself. Throwing enough pots to solo? Have fun, I'd much rather collect items and make gold imo. That would force co-operation better than alternate items lol, and would also make you not have to have 8+ to make it easier. Having 1 more does, having 2 more does, much like an item system. Bet making a handful of mobs not heal is way faster than making a whole crafting system for lvling xD Screw healing mobs in this small ass playerbaseeee.

A universal token for 150k and allowing all classes in would also work, but that doesn't make it a harder option per say, just more expensive. There's so many things that could work okay honestly.

2. Reason for the grind.

Areas:
I've always supported lvl 36+ areas with more gold/pod than normal. Why are lvl 35s training in lvl 25-30 areas?

Why are mobs that are x5 harder than sand spiders the same or even lower pod/gold?

There should of been some kind of flow to mobs hp/exp/gold/damage, but it's really crazy in this game. There's a reason no one trains in the really strong areas, easier ones reward better. Tirantek should be mostly 100-110 pod honestly. And coldmonger? Dear god, hornet queen was 200 pod right? RIGHT?

Why grind when there's no lvl 40 areas with great gold on soloable mobs? Or epic drops with +2 or 3 stat mods? Maybe a lvl 37 area for all classes (except zerk, honestly they don't need it) with LOW WIS MOBS K with epic epic epic pod and okay gold, enough to split even with mana. I'm talking 160-200 pod, boss like hp, (50-100k), and 150 damage every 2 seconds. Stay with that kind of hp/damage (less hp = more damage). Honestly every area should have a difficulty in mind that comes with a certain hp/damage to follow. Gold rate, related to hp (3 hp per 1 gold is decent gold for lvl 30), can be whatever you want, but keep in mind what rate of gold is good for what levels.

Bosses:
Bosses should be on the same scale as regular mobs. They have mass hp/damage, they should have mass exp/gold. That alone would keep people bossing. Bosses should trumph pods of areas easily. It should be something like..Mini bosses 75, lower bosses 100 (for 30 or under), upper bosses 150 (31 and up). i.e. kunal, though hard, would still be around 100, just like HL/gsw. Those numbers are just an about average though, I'd have gsw/hl like bosses at 90s and kunal at 110 or 115.

3. Class Diversity
It'll fix itself like you said. People only play what's efficient cause it's necessary with the playerbase to level. Some people do because it's their preference though, but preference is what causes diversity

[ketchup]

Supported because I'm a noob

[Cadabra]

Supported.

I will give my views if a member of the staff team could let us know this thread is gonna be taken serious because just like the game itself, could be a pointless waste of time.

[Stig]

I do agree that far too much grinding is required for the rewards gained, and the amount of gold and even teamwork required is ridiculous. The trouble is, there is opposition on the staff team to change it, plus if the system was completely overhauled, there would be a lot of anger from players who have paid a fortune to reach the Grandmaster and Legendary levels. Such an overhaul is going to have to require tact...

[Apocalypto]

We arent requesting a change in cost.

35-40 can be fixed in several ways that wouldnt change much, other than accessibility.

1) Feather system implimented for 36-40.

2) Make all token bosses non healing

3) Or make a token boss with a universal token that cost more to enter. 150k seems fair.

Edited by Apocalypto, 01 October 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[Apocalypto]

atleast change demilich getting 10 people is a chore and i dont lvl my mage because of it.

supported.

[Cadabra]

What other Staff Gareth? Didnt they all quit but still hold the role?

New system needs addint past 35, tokens are ridiculous.

Remove healing or make an alternate boss like Ryan suggested for 50k extra per token.


I also like the idea of areas having higher pod, takes alot of time gaining the required xp per level. Shouldnt Nightmist have a responsible gaming policy? Half the server doesnt sleep lol.

[Freek]

I do agree that far too much grinding is required for the rewards gained, and the amount of gold and even teamwork required is ridiculous. The trouble is, there is opposition on the staff team to change it, plus if the system was completely overhauled, there would be a lot of anger from players who have paid a fortune to reach the Grandmaster and Legendary levels. Such an overhaul is going to have to require tact...

As far as the rest of the staff team goes, maybe they should get on and post thier views on this matter and why something like making the healing token bosses non healing is an issue.

As far as "unfair" to the players that have achieved legendary and grandmaster status, the current classes that are that high are mostly the classes that have non healing bosses in the first place. I doubt any of the other classes would complain if they could acutally take there level 36+ ranger, mage or druid to the next level..

Also, 1a has never has an issue changing things for the "best" in the past. When few players were "abusing" gate training and it was removed, was it "fair" that they benifited from it and other players didn't before it was removed? Was it fair that thiefs could sit covert and click mobs for 250g per click at Lvl 35? No, no and no.

Why keep the game unbalanced and "fair" if it would better as a whole to change?

I believe everyone who still plays would like to see the 36+ level system changed or the healing bosses non healing. Even those whom have achieved this feat prior to the change.

[Freek]

Im at work so not totally focused currently but I wasn't complaining about the gold amount more about how easy and safe it was including the 100% profit, where mages still used mana and have to sit in the open. I was just using that as an example of something that was broken and then changed.

[Freek]

Agreed

[Justice]

I've avoided replying thus far so I'll put in my 2 cents worth.

Leveling 35+ is nothing but a pain in the arse due to gathering people to help with tokens. Getting people to get you out to ttk for leveling is no problem but everytime people need tokens its just one big cluster fk and a huge argument and always is. You should be able to level your characters solo...hence 1 Alt.

Oh and level 36+ areas....that would be interesting....and fun!

The grind to 40 for what? Extra stamina? I think there should be other rewards other than stamina for reaching 40. Think about it....OH YEA I REACHED LEGENDARY!....for 1 more stamina?

I know I'm going to get flamed but eh what the heck...I think it would bring some spark to 1 alt if it was possible to bring the platinum coin aspect into 1 alt. Yea I could hear it now, "overpowered this overpwered that" Maybe that would bring life into some of the bosses on 1 alt that are pretty much useless. The new dropds for atrium, demonic general and hedge lord are cool but what if you could take those new drops/old drops and exchange them for coins towards a unique peice of equipment/weapon? Or heres an idea....use platinum coins to level instead of tokens from coliseum to level from 35-40? Hmm?

Again, just my 2 cents worth.

[Apocalypto]

Agree that dex items are OP. But staff dont get that yet. Ring of Nausea and Bracelet of Agility are the worst additions to 1 alt thus far. Trumping the token system in my opinion.

[Cruxis]

Quote from Stig

"The trouble is, there is opposition on the staff team to change it."

These staff in my opinion have been inactive so long, that they are no longer qualified to make calls on the game. In some respects, they are, for some things about the game just don't change, but for the most part, no. They should be removed from making opinions on game if all they do is hold it back.

One good reason for that is..

Quote from Freek
"Why keep the game unbalanced and "fair" if it would better as a whole to change?"

They're doing exactly so, while Stig tries to make the game better. He knows what's going down, he's active, the others staff should let him do his thing, he almost definitely (but how would I know without being them? ) has more heart and understanding for this game. Too bad their ego's probably won't let them. We'll see.

Anyway, what Jordan said, 1000x over.

Staff before have used the "players will complain" excuse to not change something, and then all but 1 or 2 players supported it (the 1 or 2 didn't dissupport either, they just never showed up to give input). Where are those players that will complain again? I'm pretty sure anyone left playing only wants whats best for the game.

Regardless of whether every single person agree's, consideration should still be had by the staff team.
I'll leave with a quote everyone has heard, but more should take to heart.
"The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few."...and for my own addition, especially if that majority is 95-98%.

Edit: read some more, just for a laff, here's a "fact"
Platinum coin system would be OP but stuff like mithril bracelet and ring of nausea isn't k <3

Edit2: Such an overhaul will require no tact, if all the players man up, let go of their easy comfort, and just accept what really just needs to be done, move on, we'll be fine. We always have before when staff would make changes, whether we liked them or not.

Edited by Cruxis, 01 October 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[PureMourning]

I agree with what everyone is saying. Everyone sees it so clearly and the fact that the players even have to rally and bring up such core development issues is very telling to the fact that the staff structure is the root problem. I created a thread quite some time ago not only revealing these core issues, but offering very actionable solutions and nothing has changed. In fact, the opposition against what I was trying to do was being ambushed by people like Jase, who ended up getting super pwned for mass cheating. Quite comical.

I agree full-heartedly with Alex- the staff that haven't done crap in years need to go. The whole "Advisers" moderation team is useless. I'm not just saying this either, I've had staff members/advisers copy and paste material from the staff forum and some of the crap that goes on is so counter-productive. The only staff member right now is Gareth. Period. The others need to officially go.

But the problem is that there is no one in charge. All teams, all business organizations, have a hierarchy for a reason and someone needs the authority to make the final decision; and Gareth should be the final decision maker.

In summary, I agree with all of the content issues people are pointing out but the staff organization is a bigger failure. Good game on letting egos on a text-based game with an average of 8 players on at a time ruin the nuance this game once held.

[Cruxis]

I have nothing to really add, but if it becomes an option; I am in total support of Gareth having complete management of 1a, like Pandilex wanted to give to someone long ago, as he knew was necessary.

[Shera]

I agree what most of what Freek posted.

I think everyone that plays nm agrees that the lvl 35+ system needs to be changed! I know quite a few people that would have payed a LOT more then the lvling cost just to lvl the crits that had been sitting, or are sitting waiting to be lvled because not enough people are on to do all types of tokens, and for the amount of the tokens that people need.

I think it's a very interesting and seemingly viable option to have to get some golden crates still and trinkets to cost the same for lvling as it does now. I personally dont like the idea of just using feathers, that would get boring quickly. I like the idea of having to get different stuff for different lvls to keep things at least slightly less monotonous. Like for instance having to get 2 golden crates of lifeless scarabs, 3 Golden crates of bear hides for lvl 36, or have it be 5 golden crates total, that you pick any 5 crates that you want but you can not have more then one of the same kind of crate. (example: 1 golden crates of bear hides, 1 iron shard, 1 spider fang, 1 lifeless butterfly, and say you are sick of shards so the next ones you use: 1 each of fangs, bear hides, brown feathers, white feathers, and lifeless scarab)

EDIT: it already costs half of what Manda paid to lvl to 40

Edited by Shera, 01 October 2012 - 11:28 PM.

[Justice]

Rob for staff!

[Freek]

Obviously the feathers suggestion was a quick temp fix. I thought about using 1 of each of your choice but figured players would just farm the easiest ones. Either way just a quick Derp suggestion to get the ball rolling.
I'm still wating to see the other "staffers" input since they are so active behind the scenes yet never show thier faces.

[Ste]

if no other staff comments or doesnt support the contents of this arguement then they should state so on this post and if not then stig should go ahead and start implementing some of this. there fault they werent active enough to refuse :-)

[Freek]

if no other staff comments or doesnt support the contents of this arguement then they should state so on this post and if not then stig should go ahead and start implementing some of this. there fault they werent active enough to refuse :-)

+1

[brewcrew]

I think most people are in agreement about the leveling system. It is actually pretty sad to see just about every active player on 1 alt agreeing on something. This should be a pretty clear slap in the face to the nightmist community as a whole.

Edited by brewcrew, 02 October 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[Dangerous]

Staff will always be reluctant to change a system that has been in place for so long especially when you look at those who grinded unhumanly to reach lvl 40, but i suppose things should change for those dedicated remaining few that still play, atleast make it a little easier for them.

[Stig]

There are a lot of things I wish I could fix and improve for Nightmist, but a lot of it requires source code changes, which I don't have access to and which I can only request and hope.

Designing areas can only go so far to helping the game. At the moment I'm designing a training area for levels 31 to 40, albeit for multi-alt, so once that is complete I'll have a ponder about where to go next with 1-alt.

Unfortunately I cannot devote my full attention to Nightmist because I work full-time and I have other creative ventures that I don't want to neglect.

[Sausage]

Unfortunately I cannot devote my full attention to Nightmist because I work full-time and I have other creative ventures that I don't want to neglect.

Good for you. Nightmist is NOT that important. Real Life FTW! Go Gareth and all the realms you pwn, IRL and beyond!

[Apocalypto]

There are a lot of things I wish I could fix and improve for Nightmist, but a lot of it requires source code changes, which I don't have access to and which I can only request and hope.

Designing areas can only go so far to helping the game. At the moment I'm designing a training area for levels 31 to 40, albeit for multi-alt, so once that is complete I'll have a ponder about where to go next with 1-alt.

Unfortunately I cannot devote my full attention to Nightmist because I work full-time and I have other creative ventures that I don't want to neglect.

Completely understand that, but to change Gristle and Demi to non healing would take no time at all. Really doesnt need to be done to gristle with the amount of thieves still around, but nobody really has mages/druids. Pretty tought to get 10 people on. And also pretty lame that you have to be in cahoots with everyone to level your character.