38 replies to this topic

[Peacemaker]

Well i will say i think they should be changed back to how they was. Now other classes have gotten improvements and thieves have been nerfed to beyond the point that most wont even play one. I say change stamina and damage back and the not lose stamina thing, although the not lose stamina is not a big deal. The other two are however. Atm you have to wait till level 33 to get your 6th stamina and you are doing horrible damage the whole way. A zerk waits till lvl 33 to get 7th stamina yet still does massive damage. I say if you dont want to change it back then you should give thieves a way to armor up alot more so they can atleast be effective in one way or another. Also if you think about it, when you try to assassinate someone you are attempting to kill them. Shouldnt an attempted death strike do alot of damage? Idk i would like to get other players support on this though. Or your opinions as well. Please keep it civil though.

[Woodstock]

dmg wise yes.

but where you mentioned they balanced the other classes... really? I spent like 20 minutes arguing why mages are good for SK last night. Why? Mages arent wanted outside of PvP to go ANYWHERE. The willingness to fix other classes while one class hasnt been able to do anything but pvp and level up since the beginning of time is ridiculous, I left for over 5 years and it seems alot of meaningful fixes went into the game... except mages because a few people cry about their PvP-dmg.

[Cadabra]

Thieves suck now, they are absolutley crap to train.

Either sort out the damage or restore the DotW back to its original Vamp.

[Abstract]

So something that ignores armour and has a cheap shop bought vamp weapon sucks to train?

Thieves are still by far the easiest class to train.

- Jase

[Cadabra]

Lol.

Have you tried training a thief with DotW lately?

Thieves might ignore armor but whats the point? They do minimal damage now.

[Abstract]

Damage has not been reduced when a thief is covert. Try hitting from covert instead of facechecking monsters on a stealthy class.

- Jase

[Gangster]

Might be the easiest to train, but they are now the most under used class.

I do think that something should be done to entice people to maybe use them a LITTLE bit more but I dont know if changing it back to how it was is the solution.
No one wants them to get #####d out again.

[Abstract]

What other classes?

Thieves do the same damage per stam as everyone else, not including abilities.

Assassinate does the same damage as smite, the only variance being the percentage of armour it goes through.

examples plz.

- Jase

[Shera]

I picked C. Thieves are still good pvp and once they get lvl 29 they are pretty easy to train. I've noticed on lil thieves, cuz quite frankly I like them better then big thieves, that the little thieves can hit their top damage in or out of vert, it just doesnt happen quite as often out of vert. I'd assume that would be the same for bigger thieves. I wouldnt mind seeing Dotw brought back to what it's vamp used to be, but really that would only be useful for the ppl that dont have a cobalt.

I wouldnt say that thieves are easiest to train, I'd say overall probably a zerk is. At low lvls I'd say a mage until they get flame, a cleric until they get aid, and a paladin are probably the most annoying low lvls to train. Once they get high enough level no class is really "hard" to train. Some just train like turtles, while some train like Olympic sprinters.

On a side note I dont think that thieves are the most underused class, I'd say that still are paladins/rangers. Lately more ppl are using both classes then they used to....

Mages are mana #####s and that could be the reason that not a lot of ppl want to take them to bosses, but for SK they rape sk.

[Abstract]

Ill do some more testing tonight so i can be 100% and get back to you.

If im wrong in any way i appologise

- Jason

[Dangerous]

You ppl have too much free time to care about this nuts.

-Chris

[Cruxis]

Tbh thieves should get a minimum damage boost, again. Their damage is just crap, and anything hitting under 200 with 4stam regain is just sad.

At the same time, they need their maximum reduced, it's a bit high. Lowering that, while raising their minimum, will give their damage more balance, while keeping their training rate about the same. If their maximum is reduced properly, their stamina can be changed back, which I believe it should be. Even if their maximum isn't reduced, their stamina pre-30 should be changed back, but stay the same post-30.

Thieves aren't really supposed to be for damage anyway, they're THIEVES, so lets make them more so. The easiest fix would be giving them dotw back, simply using less pots, therefore being more profitable, and being more thief like in their benefits. They should make the gold the fastest of any class, hands down.

Though, perhaps a better fix, would be for JLH to just give them a +% of gold from mobs, like 15-20%, a sand spider would drop 600ish. Thieves would then be more liked in power parties and would be saved for ksing.
Then possibly..
Making training/bossing not purely about the damage delt, is the first step toward class diversity. As it stands now, enemy dying, exp gained, and gold gained are all depentent on higher damage. The lowest damage classes will be used the least, obviously. This needs to change!

Edited by Cruxis, 28 February 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[Sausage]

149 on a Level 35 Halfling Thief with a Bone Dagger is embarrassing. Period. Not only to me, but the whole Thief class itself.

Edit: I like how they made it so you could only do reasonable damage from Covert but then made it impossible to move Covert. Good logiiccccc.

Edited by Sausage, 28 February 2012 - 06:07 AM.

[Autek]

my thief went evil and prestiged into an assassin. sorry thief nomore . i kill for money now prz put a bounty up on site.

max end reduced? low end raised? i just laugh. they fail pvm because they should, why fight what u can rob? they excel pvp because they excel at exploiting weakpoints of enemies.

thieves and assassins are loners they rely on personal skill to get by. no books no fancy worshopping no super shield manuevres just their own skill, hiding running and stabbing and ofc the silver tongue which isnt used on nm.

classes relying on personal ability with no masters teachers lessons etc should excel the fastest and be lackluster upon high lvls.

dotw is fine on dwarves the other 3 races it sucks because dwarves get more low end damage than the other 3 races
(this was added- all thieves used to have the same low end)

getting clicked? its by a dwarf not the other 3 why? each str adds 2.5 max end damage per stam.

a lvl 40 dwarf does like 630 damage max thats alot meanwhile a ling can do 560.

dwarf could easily do near 700 with str mods which would render anything worthless except a horc/dwarf fighter and zerks.

not saying a ling or other thief wont be just as powerful but they will rarely click people w/o str mods. i barely do 320 with my gnome thief(36) to anything in recent events lol if i was dwarf tho it be an auto 360 for minimum boost and a possibility of 0-70 more for high end. thats excesive.

tbh ur a fool to not play a dwarf - more damage ,more hps ,less fails on mobs, better with vamp, insanely less stam loss.- broken-

covert needs to be a lvl based system and 100% absolutely nothing to do with base constitution. also thieves should get spotted by players more often.

Spot on post, from what I know of thieves anyways. Especially from the role playing point of view that I bolded. That said, I haven't spent the extensive amount of time playing the class that most people have. I will say I wish you'd take the time to write without abbreviations, make capitalizations, etc. It would make it so much easier to read! It takes me a couple reads sometimes to dissect it.

Edited by Autek, 28 February 2012 - 06:09 AM.

[Tietsu]

I said to change them back. Thieves have replaced Fighters as the least wanted/used class in the game. Their value has decreased incredibly with an already imbalanced economy.

There are a lot of senseless changes in this game. Players are primarily to blame. Staff actually decided to listen to players, which is far worse than ignoring them. I can not say I approve of many-- if any additions to this game, it has only added to the discourse of the experience.

Players do not deserve their high level characters altered in any way without the warrant of a full server reset. This is extremely disrespectful and completely inappropriate.

Do I care? Mildly. I did use to enjoy playing the game.


-Some awesome American

Edited by Tietsu, 28 February 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Gangster]

Changing it again would kind of ruin it for the people who bought thieves before hand then sold them off cheap because they are pretty much useless now.

[Adultery]

thieves have become a completely useless class.

change them back. or remove them from the game so that we can make room for a better class.

[Woodstock]

I said to change them back. Thieves have replaced Fighters as the least wanted/used class in the game. Their value has decreased incredibly with an already imbalanced economy.

There are a lot of senseless changes in this game. Players are primarily to blame. Staff actually decided to listen to players, which is far worse than ignoring them. I can not say I approve of many-- if any additions to this game, it has only added to the discourse of the experience.

Players do not deserve their high level characters altered in any way without the warrant of a full server reset. This is extremely disrespectful and completely inappropriate.

Do I care? Mildly. I did use to enjoy playing the game.


-Some awesome American

This is exactly why i push so hard for the improving of mage's usefulness..

Edited by Woodstock, 28 February 2012 - 06:41 PM.

[Tietsu]

I would imagine you push so hard to increase Mage capabilities because you own and enjoy playing one. I understand changes may make sense in your eyes, but there is always that bigger picture that people refuse to acknowledge. I am guilty of this as well; being an early Druid player, I made reccomendations for the class, which I look back on now and see I was clearly mistaken.


I will however say this. Games should be updated frequently. Staff do not always get it right. And it is even harder for them to accept they made a bad choice. Weapons, items, bosses, areas are a much more subtle change than that of classes in particular. You can not change one class without changing every single one of them. The problem with the balancing occurred post-arch, there was absolutely no procedure to cover this addition to the game.


Finally... Full server reset. No compensation. Fresh new slate. If players are willing to quit against a justified direction, than they don't have the love for D&D based games that they so regularly post on the forums to fix. The longer we take to do this, the harder it's going to be and the less likely a returning player base is possible.

[Gnarkill]

Finally... Full server reset. No compensation. Fresh new slate. If players are willing to quit against a justified direction, than they don't have the love for D&D based games that they so regularly post on the forums to fix. The longer we take to do this, the harder it's going to be and the less likely a returning player base is possible.

That has always been the option that made the most sense to me.. I had left before 1a came... nm was fine.. level 30 cap everyone had fun .. not as much complaning at all. Now with the 1a server that wasnt balanced and worked off the bat all we get is complaints on the forum. I will probably get flamed because people will be butthurt that they would have to "Waste more time" or "do more work" if the server was reset.. but I fully support a server reset(atleast on 1a if not both just to shake things up and see who is active and actually plays)... I mean sure it might suck to redo things but I'd rather see a handful of players enjoying a balanced game then the same handful of players plus 10 others that just sit and complain and cause drama non stop.

In a dream world 1a would have been thought upon more and better balanced before it was released.

Also get rid of "/toggle who" on multi please.

or just scrap both servers and open two brand new fresh 3 or 5 alt servers(one pvp/one pve).. so it allows people to do things but still required co-op for harder things and lets people choose the environment they enjoy playing in. Also lock accounts to one user and so characters cannot be sold/traded only rolled/used by the player in the account.

Edited by Gnarkill, 28 February 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[Woodstock]

I would imagine you push so hard to increase Mage capabilities because you own and enjoy playing one. I understand changes may make sense in your eyes, but there is always that bigger picture that people refuse to acknowledge. I am guilty of this as well; being an early Druid player, I made reccomendations for the class, which I look back on now and see I was clearly mistaken.


I will however say this. Games should be updated frequently. Staff do not always get it right. And it is even harder for them to accept they made a bad choice. Weapons, items, bosses, areas are a much more subtle change than that of classes in particular. You can not change one class without changing every single one of them. The problem with the balancing occurred post-arch, there was absolutely no procedure to cover this addition to the game.


Finally... Full server reset. No compensation. Fresh new slate. If players are willing to quit against a justified direction, than they don't have the love for D&D based games that they so regularly post on the forums to fix. The longer we take to do this, the harder it's going to be and the less likely a returning player base is possible.

I disagree...

You state how much change is needed, then say it needs a reset to do that? I dont know if you were aware, but everytime a game changes via patch or hotfix, it doesnt reset. Balancing and updates are a part of everything and you have to accept that about any game, and i think changes can still improve the game if implemented in its current state, like crit strike PvM, thief dmg, mages, etc

[PureMourning]

Tietsu and Lappa both make valid points.

In genuine MMOs (text-based or full blown 3D), there is a consistent development that takes place that consists of careful observations, testing, and implementation (via patches as yous said).

However, these games went through rigorous testing prior to release. We're talking about thousands of hours of testing behind the scenes before the game was released. 1a's release was like the Japs bombing us all over again (sorry if that sounds racist ).

Also, Lappa made mention in another thread that the staff fairly quickly pushed updates for other classes, so why don't they look at what's wrong with Mages and do something? Well, that last patch took MONTHS for JLH to finally push. Jase was talking to me about it way, way before it actually happened.

Bottom line: In a scenario where it takes a long lost admin and programmer several weeks to implement pretty straight forward code changes (which were the first in a long time), you can expect that no big change will happen. Additionally, this game currently only has 1 real staff member that is truly looking at things from a developmental viewpoint (Stig). I really like Gaz but just as his in-game title suggests, he's the Entertainment guy. I don't think Scripto does anything and Elf doesn't do anything in terms of game design. Also, another problem is I bet the staff forum is flooded with people (even ex-staff who are now "advisers") tossing in their two cents every chance they get... and in my opinion, its probably just causing a mess. Its not personal, but, if you don't even play the game anymore why throw in your out-dated two cents - which in reality is merely extremely damaged and dent pennies. We don't need the anachronisms.

Xlithan brought up a good point in another thread, too: If there was ever a new wave of staff members hired, NM should look at applicants' backgrounds more seriously and see if they have any game design experience (whether it be programming, management, game design, art and rendering, ETC...). It does make a difference because these individuals have a stronger foundation and have already learned the number one rule: Leave your egos at the door. And they fully realize that game balancing is an ever existing iteration process that needs to be re-worked again and again. Once again, this isn't personal, but a good example was Jase: He got way too emotional and upset when receiving criticism and just acted unprofessionally and flamed the players. The staff act way too entitled. We all know you work for "free" (those who actually do work) but step down if you can't act professionally and truly serve the community.

This turned into bit of a rant...!

[Woodstock]

Tietsu and Lappa both make valid points.

In genuine MMOs (text-based or full blown 3D), there is a consistent development that takes place that consists of careful observations, testing, and implementation (via patches as yous said).

However, these games went through rigorous testing prior to release. We're talking about thousands of hours of testing behind the scenes before the game was released. 1a's release was like the Japs bombing us all over again (sorry if that sounds racist ).

Also, Lappa made mention in another thread that the staff fairly quickly pushed updates for other classes, so why don't they look at what's wrong with Mages and do something? Well, that last patch took MONTHS for JLH to finally push. Jase was talking to me about it way, way before it actually happened.

Bottom line: In a scenario where it takes a long lost admin and programmer several weeks to implement pretty straight forward code changes (which were the first in a long time), you can expect that no big change will happen. Additionally, this game currently only has 1 real staff member that is truly looking at things from a developmental viewpoint (Stig). I really like Gaz but just as his in-game title suggests, he's the Entertainment guy. I don't think Scripto does anything and Elf doesn't do anything in terms of game design. Also, another problem is I bet the staff forum is flooded with people (even ex-staff who are now "advisers") tossing in their two cents every chance they get... and in my opinion, its probably just causing a mess. Its not personal, but, if you don't even play the game anymore why throw in your out-dated two cents - which in reality is merely extremely damaged and dent pennies. We don't need the anachronisms.

Xlithan brought up a good point in another thread, too: If there was ever a new wave of staff members hired, NM should look at applicants' backgrounds more seriously and see if they have any game design experience (whether it be programming, management, game design, art and rendering, ETC...). It does make a difference because these individuals have a stronger foundation and have already learned the number one rule: Leave your egos at the door. And they fully realize that game balancing is an ever existing iteration process that needs to be re-worked again and again. Once again, this isn't personal, but a good example was Jase: He got way too emotional and upset when receiving criticism and just acted unprofessionally and flamed the players. The staff act way too entitled. We all know you work for "free" (those who actually do work) but step down if you can't act professionally and truly serve the community.

This turned into bit of a rant...!

+1

[Tietsu]

I know the game mechanics. Some organizations ask why you decided to uninstall a program. Of course my two cents are damaged pennies, as stated above, there's a reason I don't have much to do here and I'm explaining myself. Apparently some people think I have no right posting here. Well, staff can delete my account and finish the job, otherwise you're going to have to hear from an unbias person. Also, I could be wrong but haven't you posted here without currently playing a game?


/end rant



Back to Woodstock. Look. Things were done in disarray and players wasted valuble time they may not have wasted before the crucial changes to characters. Not to mention it's one class at a time when they decide to 'balance'. Changing level requirements and armor? Stam? I am not saying that these were not an appropriate measure, but at the wrong time. Reset the game and do it right when you decide to patch. I know it's hard to balance the game under the circumstances I have laid out without a reset. This staff team is not as well organized for many other games and after so many years a game will discontinue as an MMO and will come out with some doppleganger which was basically just one huge graphics patch.

I know foremost resetting the game is not an attractive option for some people. I'm just trying to explain the best I can why I think it's the right hting to do. People may not agree and if they do not, continue as you are and enjoy playing the game.

Edited by Tietsu, 28 February 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[PureMourning]

Just for clarification, I wasn't referring to you at at all Alec. I think you're very competent and knowledgeable. I was specifically referring to older, inactive staff members that still hold some sort of position.

(Also, I'm surprised you thought I was referring to you. It wasn't along ago that you were very active, and you leveled many characters up pretty quickly. ).

[Tietsu]

Sorry. It's not often you don't find yourself on the defensive on the forums. Point still stands though. I would enjoy a balanced version of NM without drastic changes so frequently when all it needs is just one big overhaul. It's possible, just can't stand a player base being used to test (guinea pigs) and tweak the problems as you go. This should already be done. I know Stig tries really hard, but as competant as he is, this is beyond his work alone. I agree to extra staff being hired, but look at this small community.

[Cadabra]

(Also, I'm surprised you thought I was referring to you. It wasn't along ago that you were very active, and you leveled many characters up pretty quickly. ).

*Cough*

[Tietsu]

Matty. I love you in a heterosexual kind of way. I don't care if you're British or not.

[Cadabra]

Lets turn this into a bromance!

I love you too man .

*Sniffle*

[Abstract]

I do have to agree i got over-emotional. I was not prepared for the onslaught of uninformed criticism, and that was probably my downfall.

There is alot of pressure on staff to get things right, and people dont see sometimes we do make mistakes. I tryed to keep things public aswell, if i had caused an issue by mistake i appologised for it. I also liked to keep the players informed, by joining discussions and keeping it open. But in reality all i did was open myself up to abuse from the playerbase, and you have to see hours and hours of time gets put into any update. Being flamed/harassed because you were giving your free time to develop something you care about, for the enjoyment of the players did get me emotional.

Then there was the trouble with the older members of staff as Rob rightly pointed out. As many who know me understand, this was my final reasoning for quitting staff (Amongst other things).

In summary i probably should have detached myself more from the playerbase, but it was difficult because believe it or not i was doing my best to improve the game. Events/Quests were being ran, ontop of developing and testing idea's. I recommended bringing in Stig, and if you compare the previous couple of years to the last couple, i think nightmist benefited greatly overall with developments. (Remembering that for around 3 years it was at a complete standstill)

-Jase

ps. Im alot more chilled out now im an advisor. Being staff is a stressful job!!