76 replies to this topic

[Freek]

As everyone knows I'm biased towards mages but thier are actually plenty of good arguments to why they are "UP". The main thing I'm going to touch on today is Monsters Wisdom and Mana issues.

As if its not hard enough to train a mage due to being so heavily reliant on mana, not being able to get "buffed" to "power train" and being one of the squishes classes in the game. One of the main problems with mages is finding spots to train. We all know the best way to train, you find a monster that yields one of two things or both. You find monsters with ok POD and great gold drops or vice versa. For a mage this is most difficult. Not only are they handicapped by the insane mana usage to train but then they are handicapped even more. Not only do you have to find a good monster that has good POD and drops enough gold to AT LEAST pay you back for the mana consumption. Now you have to find a Monster that has LOW wisdom, good POD and enough gold drop to cover an Inventory of not just pots but mana as well. Yes their are monsters with high dex and high armor that are ineffective for hitters but they are also not gimped by mana and once they buy a vamp weapon they have almost no cost to train.

Some potential fixes:

1.) A mana regening weapon/ability.
2.) Something like pacifist deity you get x amount of mana back per mob kill. Obviously not yielding 100% back but something that would give them a little more sustain.
3.) Random "traveling merchants" in the wild that sell pots/mana etc (would like to see implemented either way would let players explore more on there own and still not be as good as partying up)
4.) Widen the range of low wisdom monsters that are realistic for a mage to get to.

I could go on about mages. How they scale worse the higher level they go compared to the other classes etc etc, but I will leave this as a training thread for now.


TL;DR - Mages are gimped by mana and the few options of monsters to train on.

Edited by Freek, 21 June 2011 - 08:18 PM.

[Autek]

I like #2 and #3 the best.

[Gnarkill]

the idea of gaining a % of mana back per kill is a great one, I really have enjoyed mages alot over the years and due to me being more of a loner on 1a(until recently) it just wasn't practical for my playing style to train one.

The Problems I've had in the past while using a mage on 1a:

1. I've had a hard time getting AoP for any mage I've trained due to people not wanting to go and AoP is pretty essential in a mage's survival at a higher level.

Possible Solution: make AoP an expensive shop buy somewhere so people who cannot get a party together are not left without.

2. I enjoy training alone and unless I wanna train closer to pk areas, I am forced to haul mana and sit and risk losing $$ by someone finding/deleting them.

Possible Solution(Aside from ones you posted):

-a "medititate" ability that lets you gain back a certain amount of mana per cast, I believe something like that would mean you would almost need to have it be like pacifist recall where you can only cast when there isnt any monsters present, you are on full stam and full health and it takes all of your stam to cast it and gain back a little amount of MP

I do like the idea of a type of "paci diety" skill for gaining mana back with each kill and the idea of traveling merchants.. though in that situation I do think the merchants items should be set at a higher price than the ones in town due to not having to run back.

[Prototype]

Why not just a regen over time deal, would be good for all classes. Only make it active after performing no action for x amount of seconds + no red mobs on the square. Pots/crystals you use while in combat (or if you're very impatient), but other then that you can just rest inbetween fights. Using time vs. using gold type of deal, and it would make it possible for all classes to venture and explore, if done cautiously (run and drag a lot of mobs and it might be hard finding a safe spot to rest on before they have taken you out). Also means it's sometimes better to fight to create a safe spot, and sometimes better to run.

The vamp weapons kinda make it OP for some classes perhaps, but they're already unbalanced now.

[Freek]

Why not just a regen over time deal, would be good for all classes. Only make it active after performing no action for x amount of seconds. Pots/crystals you use while in combat (or if you're very impatient), but other then that you can just rest inbetween fights. Using time vs. using gold type of deal, and it would make it possible for all classes to venture and explore, if done cautiously (run and drag a lot of mobs and it might be hard finding a safe spot to rest on before they have taken you out). Also means it's sometimes better to fight to create a safe spot, and sometimes better to run.

I think regen more then 1hp every 5 seconds or whatever it is would be nice. Would have to balance out which class regens how much of what energy and would have to make it not work while "hidden". But don't want the game to turn into camp fest. IE: Take a party somewhere and log off and be able to stay almost forever (more so than you can now depending on the class). Such as Clerics afking in tombs etc etc.


Edit: "Meditate when cast last 30 or so seconds and for every second the mage receives and additional 2mp. However, when cast the mage would lose 2-3 dex for the time of the spell being cast and would be unable to move (Because the mage would be in a meditative state and not be able to react quickly or move). Make it to where its like Justice Zone, where the paci cannot move until Justice Zone is lifted and have the negative 2-3 dex."

Edited by Freek, 21 June 2011 - 11:05 PM.

[Prototype]

To fix people not coming back to towns we finally need to add the repair gear deal. Every hit you take becomes a fraction of a % your gear deteriorates, which makes you lose armor points. For serkers we just make something similar were they need to do something as well in town, or they start losing more and more HP (just make up some fantasy hoopla, kel'no'reem or something ).

This also solves the gold issue and then you can remove the insane token gold costs.

[Crane]

Nightmist has a ten-year-old engine that hasn't seen much in terms of fundamental upgrades. The game could use a fair few, but it depends if JLH's time on programming such things are justified. Let's hope we can continue attracting new players and encouraging the veterans to stay.

[Freek]

Bump. Mages need to not be useless PvM.

[Sausage]

Mages rape.

Don't think Mages should be the focus. I think pallies/fighters are much worse pvm than mages.

Not supported.

[Freek]

Mages rape.

Don't think Mages should be the focus. I think pallies/fighters are much worse pvm than mages.

Not supported.

Woo time for a good debate.

First off, Pallys and Fighters are not restricted when it comes to places to train. Both of these classes can do well in parties and are not limited to mana. Paladins can go anywhere in the map they want, they are probably the most self sufficient class. Once a paladin has a Cobalt and 14 Superior mana crystals there isn't many things that can stop them. A fighter can hit and run anything all day and again isn't limited to mana. Once a fighter has a cobalt he becomes very easy to train. A Cobalt fighter + food/water can do almost anything it wants as well.

Mages on the other hand are not only reliant on mana but they are also gimped by monsters stats (wisdom), they have no purpose in a group, the gold they make pvm they turn around and spend on mana and have no +dmg buffs to there abilitys. The only good thing mages have going for them is the fact that their damage is sustained and for that reason I don't see the reason to add +dmg buffs. Instead they need to be able to train without having to go back for mana or refresh every 10 mins.

[Catalyst]

Well why not have a spell like VG except it takes you to a single square where a fountain is or something similar and once you leave it teleports you back to the same square you came from.. but even mana regen spells could be added or weapons and armor that could potentially give back mana.. ever thought of something similar to mana tap?

[Apocalypto]

The above idea isn't bad but I don't know how possible it would be to teleport back to where u were... I still like the idea of having no armor and regaining mp at a much faster rate through meditation...

[Freek]

P.S. - Its not just the fact that I dislike going back for mana. It's the fact that I do have to go back for mana and spend more than 80% of the gold I made training. On ANY other class once you recieve a cobalt there is almost no cost to train anymore and you get to pocket all the money you make. From level 1-forever mages have to spend vast amounts of gold on mana. I don't even care if you make Mage only mana crystals that are like 50gp. Even that would be ok.

[Autek]

Choose a different class. lol J/K


The idea of small shops similar to that of the Hut up towards the Mountain Ranger would benefit everyone. Just because someone stays away from town doesn't mean squat. You don't have to have a bank at those places, and the longer someone stays out the more gold they risk losing. Also, if you accidentally stam out in a bad spot or something, you will still be respawned in a town. Getting more of the map used on a consistent basis can only be a good thing.

[Sausage]

I'm somewhat thrown off...

You're looking for an innate skill/ability to equalize Mages since they can't fully utilize a 10,000,000 gold weapon?

"cobalt" 1 of 4.

[Freek]

I'm somewhat thrown off...

You're looking for an innate skill/ability to equalize Mages since they can't fully utilize a 10,000,000 gold weapon?

"cobalt" 1 of 4.

I'll pay 10m

[Apocalypto]

Say you learn the spell from a vampire mage for 10ish mill... same vamp as balt?

Edited by Apocalypto, 15 July 2011 - 03:47 PM.

[Eternyte]

Quick reply, but aslong as that spell regained both hp/mp I'd be up for that.

[Dangerous]

Figured i'd throw a comment since i only use my lvl 37 mage to sit on nowadays. Personally i feel mages are the weakest of all classes, so few areas to train, your always prone to clickage from a covert thief (sometimes even with AoP on), and the biggest issues the equipment and mana regen.

So all in all i wonder why anyone even bothers to train something which surely isn't all that fun to train anymore and the only answer i could come up with is i think ppl remember (probably mostly from main) when the lvl 30 cap was in place, how much mages were fun to play and destroyed anything which made it so worthwhile to train. Speaking from experience having a lvl 37, 23 intel, fully equipped Elf Mage on 1-Alt, i wonder why half the time i fail to round lower level thieves, how can they resist?, why do i fizzle so much?, surely at 37 this shouldn't occur as often as it currently does, and why the hell do i beam more consistently with dex mods? (i have tested this).

I posted this long winded comment so hopefully a staff member from 1-alt will read it and maybe give mages a serious looking into, possibly some testing also (memo i'm available) and hopefully do something about it so mages can be restored to they're former glory.

Can be found ingame as Chaos on the 1-Alt server.

[brewcrew]

In my opinion, being one of the people who helped level chaos, mages are vastly under powered. Mages used to be hard to train but produced great results in PvP, which made mages pay off for suck training. Provide nothing but mana whorage in parties, useless at most bosses. With thier domininance stripped PvP, i see no point in leveling a mage at all. I really like the meditation ability or maybe something to help them be more useful trips. I am not going to pretend that i know what that should be but hopefully staff and people more well informed than me will come up with a viable solution.

[Dangerous]

Personally i wouldn't have the patience for a regen spell unless it was substancial, when your training you want the exp as fast as possible, not sit around and wait in between kills, PvM what can you say really, the only time you'll see a mage in a party is if you need into GC or Tirantek Mines, other than that they're completely useless and not a viable choice. I think this is unfortunate as it's nice to have some diversity in a party, mages in my opinion are only for vortex gates or the occassional invis these days, which is SAD people, very SAD. Q.Q

[Prototype]

Figured i'd throw a comment since i only use my lvl 37 mage to sit on nowadays. Personally i feel mages are the weakest of all classes, so few areas to train, your always prone to clickage from a covert thief (sometimes even with AoP on), and the biggest issues the equipment and mana regen.

So all in all i wonder why anyone even bothers to train something which surely isn't all that fun to train anymore and the only answer i could come up with is i think ppl remember (probably mostly from main) when the lvl 30 cap was in place, how much mages were fun to play and destroyed anything which made it so worthwhile to train. Speaking from experience having a lvl 37, 23 intel, fully equipped Elf Mage on 1-Alt, i wonder why half the time i fail to round lower level thieves, how can they resist?, why do i fizzle so much?, surely at 37 this shouldn't occur as often as it currently does, and why the hell do i beam more consistently with dex mods? (i have tested this).

I posted this long winded comment so hopefully a staff member from 1-alt will read it and maybe give mages a serious looking into, possibly some testing also (memo i'm available) and hopefully do something about it so mages can be restored to they're former glory.

Can be found ingame as Chaos on the 1-Alt server.

Figured i'd throw a comment since i only use my lvl 37 mage to sit on nowadays. Personally i feel mages are the weakest of all classes, so few areas to train, your always prone to clickage from a covert thief (sometimes even with AoP on), and the biggest issues the equipment and mana regen.

So all in all i wonder why anyone even bothers to train something which surely isn't all that fun to train anymore and the only answer i could come up with is i think ppl remember (probably mostly from main) when the lvl 30 cap was in place, how much mages were fun to play and destroyed anything which made it so worthwhile to train. Speaking from experience having a lvl 37, 23 intel, fully equipped Elf Mage on 1-Alt, i wonder why half the time i fail to round lower level thieves, how can they resist?, why do i fizzle so much?, surely at 37 this shouldn't occur as often as it currently does, and why the hell do i beam more consistently with dex mods? (i have tested this).

I posted this long winded comment so hopefully a staff member from 1-alt will read it and maybe give mages a serious looking into, possibly some testing also (memo i'm available) and hopefully do something about it so mages can be restored to they're former glory.

Can be found ingame as Chaos on the 1-Alt server.

Double rainbow all the way...!!

[Cruxis]

I've always thought mages damage PvM should rival that of zerks, but with lower, consistent numbers. Obviously nothing like 150 points a cast, but on most mobs, 60-70? Really? A spelled fighter, sometimes even a str spelled paladin is worth more damage on a trip. Then again most mobs don't seem to have more than 10-20 armor, where most mobs have decent wisdom.

Their mana drainage with their lvl 25 spell takes more than it would to keep a crit fully spelled and healed. Well, depending on the damage output of the mobs. This makes me think a mage should pretty much be as powerful as a fully spelled crit, without the need for being spelled by a cleric, but at the price of costly training and being oh so squishy.

High damage output that needs great sustaining, hp for zerks, mp for mages. Lack of MP isn't lethal..but does make a mage virtually useless, except as a (sad excuse for a) meat shield.

HP is taken from mana generally, at nearly twice the efficiency that mages beam spell deals damage. It should be obvious why they aren't used in parties. It's not often (usually only boss runs) that mobs will be doing more damage than a single character can (200-500 every 10 seconds). So generally, damage output of a melee class > damage of mobs, which is why I compare 1HP to 1 Beam damage (if you haven't caught on, a melee class will generally do more than 1 damage for 1 point of HP).

They are fine PvP damage wise, atleast until the later rounds where their "double gains in unseen stats" seem worthless besides a few damage PvM. With wisdom defense "double gains", PvP mages spell damage stay the same 31-40, mages could use 3-4 points of base armor to compensate (lvl 35 would be a good point), but that isn't too much of an issue I believe?

I believe a PvM only damage spell that isn't too much more costly than beam is in order. This would continue to make them costly and unappealing party wise to train, atleast until said spell is attained, thus giving them the right to such power. That shouldn't be till far off, say, lvl 34-36?

A Meditate spell or innate mana regain would work as well to make mages more appealing, but easier to train means they don't deserve more power, which I think they do. I'll support it as a second

Edited by Cruxis, 16 July 2011 - 10:48 AM.

[Cruxis]

They can indeed hit around 100-110 on extremely low wis (at very high levels). But few mobs have such low (none?) wis, and none of them have extremely great pod, seeming to top out at 70-75. Also, they are bad gold. Mages can make good gold, but have to refresh on high wis and/or low pod mobs.

Like I said, I like them that way, and think they deserve more power at higher levels because of it. Just not PvP.

But easier training and staying weak would work, and there are many ways to make their training easier.

I like the spell idea cause at higher levels, it would make them worthwhile on boss trips. Heavy mana cost on should allow for great damage.

Or maybe at lvl 35, make Beam only take 5 mana? By 10 levels I'm sure they'd of mastered the spell to be atleast be twice as efficient.

Edited by Cruxis, 17 July 2011 - 01:01 AM.

[Dangerous]

They lack both PVP and PVM 35+, thats why there are so few? i'd also like to see ppl who actually have a 35+ mage to give some feedback and not those with adepts ^.^

[Tietsu]

Give a manatap spell, similar to lifedrain.

Mage casts osmosis on a Brown Bear.
Brown bear is struck by a brilliant blue aura, dealing 20 damage.
Mage replenishes 20 mana.


Make it like smite, completely stams you out, only replace the value of 20 to 150.

Just a random thought. And I know Osmosis isn't D&D based. Meh, took me like 3 seconds to think of the idea.

Edited by Tietsu, 17 July 2011 - 05:29 PM.

[Prototype]

If you talk like that at least have the courtesy to use text messaging

[Freek]

The reason I posted this thread is because of how mages seems to scale past 30.

When 30 was the cap mages were the true glass cannons. They were the most time consuming class to Arch and were ridiculously painful pre 25. Once 25 mages became true powerhouses and at 30 could take almost anyone without question. Since 30+ was released however mages scaling is one of the worst around. They gain 2 damage on each end of beam max/min, they are the only class that are reliant on both mana and health and the fizzle/resist rate seems to stay the same. 35v35 the only thing mages beat consitantly are rangers/fighters. Thieves, Zerks, Druids (espeically wis modded) can easily dominate a mage and are 10x easier to train and gold with.

When 30 was the cap it was reasonable why mages were such a headache to train but now that 30+ is the cap mages either need to be buffed back in PvP were they were or balanced in PvM. I'd prefer them to just go back to being class cannons in PvP but that would require another stam, devastate that actually scales with levels or more buffs to intel mods.

[Freek]

buffed back pvp? lol u already have to play a dwarf or stack 3 wis on something to not get rounded. i forget a lvl 29 human mage rounding lvl 33 ling thieves was balance. and if by chance they do "break the mold" and have 5-6 hps above avg and u cant round them wait 2 seconds let the mob hit first lol. as i said pvp means crap since whoever is playing hunter has 4x the advantage in almost every possible situation and when it comes down to PvM beam hits harder stam for stam than almost anything.

on a side note on true downfall to mages is no buffs to damage clerics could get an intelligence boost spell to remedy mages or by chance enhance be altered to affect int on mages.

PvP =/= Pking.

Your telling me that at 35 a mage can round anything of the same level besides a zerk? Cause thats good jokes. Fact is the gain of +2 dmg per beam =/= double gains in hp and at 40 there will be no chance for mages. Even after the long hard grind leveling one.

[Cruxis]

I dont think he gets that one failed Beam means the mage will fail at pking.

The chance of fizzle, half or full resist seems to get even higher as levels go on. And needing 7 full beams instead of 5 to round in itself gives the mage 2 more chances to fail more so than to win.

Pot macro > stam by stam attacks anyway. Regardless of class, the hunter always has the advantage. Mages get the least here.

Pretty sure my ranger will outdamage any mage on a mob, I never hit under 50 and hit up to 98. Zerks are a hit and miss more so, but I could say the same, stam for stam they will outdamage mages. Don't even need to bring the fact melee classes can be spelled, thus rendering the unbuffable mage useless in parties.

But what's the point when mages get 1 less stam regain (generally) anyway? Stam for stam, that alone should allow mages more damage.