39 replies to this topic

[Walt]

Recently today it was announced that the brew has been reduced from 100 to 75 hp regain. It was said to be done to keep comperable with the mana water. Mana water as we know has been 75 mana regain for the longest time.

This may not be too drastic a change on main, where a single player can carry 20 crits full of brews(14*20=280...280*75=21,000 hp regain). On 1 alt though, there is a drastic reduction. One character can carry 14 brews(14*75=1,050) From the reduction, every crit looses 350 health points.

Now let us talk about mana water. Mana water lets you regain 75 mana points. On a cleric, 75 mana points can cast 9.375 Divine Restoration spells(8 mana to cast) An average DR spell deals about 100-112 health point regain.so for 50 gold and a cleric, you can cast about 1k in hp regain.

Not everyone runs around on a thief on 1a. Not everyone has a vamp weapon at their disposal. 350 hp reduction per char is a kick in the head. And if you are a magic caster other then a cleric, then you really loose out, or fork over more gold to buy advanced pots.

But buying advanced potions makes no sense, since you already sacrificed 3 crystal rings to trade for a guild of crafters membership ring. That in itself is a 375k investment just to be able to buy the flasks in the tower in the meadow. Originally the flask cost 5 gold, but last year sometime it was changed to 50 gold. Maybe it is just me, but that semes like a big enough sacrifice, maybe we over on 1a do not need to have 25 hp per brew taken away.

Please discuss.

[deadman]

Yeah, I think it was a pretty ridiculous change for 1a. I can see it being done on the multi server because you can use up to 20 characters at one time. Over on 1alt though 3 crystal rings is not as easy to come by, and to a lot of people even when they get 3 crystal rings they don't even want to change them in for 1 3 armor ring.

[Oracle]

I think it is the change is fine for multi but should be reversed on 1a.

Mainly with what Walt said, with 20 characters it'll be fine.

When you have 1 character, then you can't afford to loose this much HP per trip after you've spent all that money on the guild ring!

[Crane]

The main issue is the cost of Empty Flasks... originally they were 5 gold apiece, being cheaper than the cheapest potion going, the Basic Healing Potion. Unfortunately, 5 gold is too cheap for 75 HP, even with a Guild of Crafters Membership Ring; I would like to recommend something like 30 gold, or 25, as was mentioned above.

ADDENDUM: An announcement would have been nice on multi, or on the forum, since such a small thing is quite a major change, but thank you for warning us on 1-alt, Wes.

Edited by Crane, 31 December 2008 - 05:41 AM.

[Gaddy]

So, you should get---essentially free healing potions at all times on the 1-alt server?
I disagree.

Further, on the main server, I do not think you can just fill an inventory with Empty Flasks and drop them into some cauldron to get all of the Unknown Brews. If you can, it should never have been set to being possible.
However, the 1-alt server got this easy potion making because of a staff member who changed a bunch of things without consulting ANYONE else on the staff team.

The brews have basically been a bug that has been left to fester for ages.




The cost should not be all that much less than the cost of Advanced Healing Potions.
You can still buy Advanced Healing Potions anyway, so it isn't as if there are no full healing potions in-game.

[Cadabra]

lol knew Gaddy would be the only person to disagree gg.

[«¤ºxXl3úÐXxº¤»]

I think both sides can win. If your going to change some thing change the cost. Walt says it's less hp. Gaddy says it's too cheap. Increase the hp back to 100. Increase the cost of brews to 100 gold a pop. Make advanced healing potions 150 gold a pop. There is a limited amount of inventory space. There is a sizable ammount of gold. Of course you could play with the figures to make it work better. If the right increases and decreases are made though, everyone can win.

[Tietsu]

On the 1-ALT Server, I see this impacting Thieves/Zerkers the most. Thief class needs to be nerfed anyway, and no one takes a Zerker with pots very often out training. From a Druid point of view, I see no problem with the change.

Edited by Tietsu, 31 December 2008 - 08:46 PM.

[Wind]

All I say is what the hell is everyone's problem. Stop been so tight and buy Advanced Healing Potion's.

[Isolated]

they need a new reason to pregnant dog when something doesnt go there way

[Sublime]

So, you should get---essentially free healing potions at all times on the 1-alt server?
I disagree.

Further, on the main server, I do not think you can just fill an inventory with Empty Flasks and drop them into some cauldron to get all of the Unknown Brews. If you can, it should never have been set to being possible.
However, the 1-alt server got this easy potion making because of a staff member who changed a bunch of things without consulting ANYONE else on the staff team.

The brews have basically been a bug that has been left to fester for ages.




The cost should not be all that much less than the cost of Advanced Healing Potions.
You can still buy Advanced Healing Potions anyway, so it isn't as if there are no full healing potions in-game.

Gaddy i mean no disrespect here, but, you don't even play the 1-alt server, nor have you played it enough to know what it takes to play the server, they absolutely are not free potions, you do know you have to spend 3 crystal rings to even get the guild ring to allow you to get into the area, do you know how long it takes to get 3 crystal rings for 1 person on the 1-alt server? And yes, you can do it on main, but it has little to no point on the main server, nobody can pk there, and the only thing people really use pots for is to pk, or to kill malok on thieves, on the 1-alt server everybody needs to use pots, not just thieves.

And before you go knocking that staff member who "didn't consult anyone", stop and take a look at all he did in that short ammount of time, expect a few bugs to be there, and no offense, but i don't see you trying to balance anything out, i just see you shooting down post's that have some actual meaning to this server, you know i have alot of respect for you as a player, and we have been friends for years, but you are wrong in this situation.

The logical thing to do would be to raise the price of brews to 100, leave the hp gain at 100, otherwise, what was the point of me taking my 3 crystal rings to turn into 1 guild ring? So i can go buy pots that are basically useless to me?

If the brews are going to to stay the way they are, then players should be given the opportunity to break down guild rings back to crystal rings, because im not going to pay 3 crystal rings for the chance at buying worse pots than i can just buy for 200 gold, essentially, the brews do cost more than the advanced healing potion, because of the investment put into them.

Plus you have to level a mage to 20 before you can even take advantage of the brews, because you have to cast vortex gate to even get into the room where you give the flask's to the cauldron.

Like i said, i don't mean any disrespect here, but you really need to take a look at everything that goes into it before you decide what is right or wrong.

[Tietsu]

I really don't see a problem with Unknown Brews. They should be used for Token Bosses and maybe for Stashes, not cheap pots to have to PK someone or train with. Will deffinately make a Thief think twice about popping in on someone that can't be clicked. That's all thieves have going for them. Again, this hurts MAINLY thieves, especially the low levels with a Vampiric Dagger who can't essentially survive with the vampiric weapon alone. Always was my personal opinion that DoTW should never have existed on 1-ALT, it was an atrocity that put way too much money in the game. In my aspect, sacrificing Unknown Brews for more expennsive Advanced Potions takes money out of the game. SUCCESS

Edited by Tietsu, 01 January 2009 - 01:38 PM.

[Cadabra]

So, you should get---essentially free healing potions at all times on the 1-alt server?
I disagree.

Further, on the main server, I do not think you can just fill an inventory with Empty Flasks and drop them into some cauldron to get all of the Unknown Brews. If you can, it should never have been set to being possible.
However, the 1-alt server got this easy potion making because of a staff member who changed a bunch of things without consulting ANYONE else on the staff team.

The brews have basically been a bug that has been left to fester for ages.




The cost should not be all that much less than the cost of Advanced Healing Potions.
You can still buy Advanced Healing Potions anyway, so it isn't as if there are no full healing potions in-game.

Gaddy i mean no disrespect here, but, you don't even play the 1-alt server, nor have you played it enough to know what it takes to play the server, they absolutely are not free potions, you do know you have to spend 3 crystal rings to even get the guild ring to allow you to get into the area, do you know how long it takes to get 3 crystal rings for 1 person on the 1-alt server? And yes, you can do it on main, but it has little to no point on the main server, nobody can pk there, and the only thing people really use pots for is to pk, or to kill malok on thieves, on the 1-alt server everybody needs to use pots, not just thieves.

And before you go knocking that staff member who "didn't consult anyone", stop and take a look at all he did in that short ammount of time, expect a few bugs to be there, and no offense, but i don't see you trying to balance anything out, i just see you shooting down post's that have some actual meaning to this server, you know i have alot of respect for you as a player, and we have been friends for years, but you are wrong in this situation.

The logical thing to do would be to raise the price of brews to 100, leave the hp gain at 100, otherwise, what was the point of me taking my 3 crystal rings to turn into 1 guild ring? So i can go buy pots that are basically useless to me?

If the brews are going to to stay the way they are, then players should be given the opportunity to break down guild rings back to crystal rings, because im not going to pay 3 crystal rings for the chance at buying worse pots than i can just buy for 200 gold, essentially, the brews do cost more than the advanced healing potion, because of the investment put into them.

Plus you have to level a mage to 20 before you can even take advantage of the brews, because you have to cast vortex gate to even get into the room where you give the flask's to the cauldron.

Like i said, i don't mean any disrespect here, but you really need to take a look at everything that goes into it before you decide what is right or wrong.

/clap

Well said.

[Peacemaker]

Well i rarely use them cause i dont like to bother with getting them since i only have one vault, but if i did have a vault to put 100 items in then ya i definitely would get them all the time. The brews dont only effect thieves. Personally when i go out pkin on my thief i get advanced pots 99% of the time. When i train i do the same. But i get advanced pots whether im on a thief or another crit when i go train though. Also as said the unknown brews are only used on one alt. Why do you need unknown brews on main when there is nobody to pk and everyone has 4 clerics to heal themselfs. All you have to have on main is full inventories of mana. Hence why it makes sense that mana water gives less than unknown brews.

[JadedSoul]

I can see Walt sitting back holding his belly chuckling with devilish laughter.

With no disrespect my Gadster. I would love to see you come over to 1 Alt. The bueaty of having you on main was that you were so consumed with the details. You worked tirelessly to work out all the details creating some interesting things. But I agree with JP on this.

[Scripto]

Well I have and do play both servers, and personally agree with Gaddy 100%.

[Cadabra]

I want mine back too.... We wasnt informed this was gonna happen!

[Crane]

I have one possible alternative that serves both role-play and game mechanics... just a suggestion, mind you.

- Have an NPC in the Isolated Apartment who demands a payment of 40 gold (for example) and accuses you of being a thief if you try to dip an Empty Flask into the Dark Cauldron.

- Only get an Unknown Brew #124470 when you give an Empty Flask and 40 gold to the Dark Cauldron.

- Reduce the price of the Empty Flask back to 5 gold.

- Adjust the description of the Isolated Apartment slightly, since there is now an NPC in it.


As for the NPC and the exchanges...

Eztil rocks back and forth in his rocking chair, wrapped snugly in his royal blue robes, sleeping peacefully and dreaming what only sorcerers dream. A wand rests delicately under his hand, partially obscured by a long, shaggy white beard. Eztil is in a healthy condition.

- If you try to give an Empty Flask to the Dark Cauldron: You get the Empty Flask back and... Eztil suddenly awakes with a start and jabs his wand threateningly at %user. <newline> Eztil: WHAT?! Who goes there?! You want a sample of my secret brew, little thief? You'll have to pay the price... 40 gold should suffice; otherwise I could blast you into oblivion. Either outcome suits me fine. <newline> With that, Eztil relaxes back into his chair and dozes off again.

- If you give an Empty Flask and 40 gold to the Dark Cauldron: You get one Unknown Brew #124470. Eztil opens an eye as %user drops 40 gold into his lap. <newline> Eztil: Aah, I'm glad to see you young-uns have some sense... and some respect... goodnight! <newline> Eztil sinks peacefully back into his chair and falls asleep.

(%user, I believe, will be automatically placed with the name of the crit who made the exchange)

All this assumes that the price is 40 gold (change all references as you see fit) and the Dark Cauldron won't be used elsewhere.


EDIT: Colouring.

Edited by Crane, 02 January 2009 - 01:23 AM.

[shomer]

it would have to be an amount of gold for a money order since you can't give a certain amount of gold along with an item at the same time to an npc

[Crane]

it would have to be an amount of gold for a money order since you can't give a certain amount of gold along with an item at the same time to an npc

Not even if it's comma-separated? Drat! So much for that idea...

[Gaddy]

So, you should get---essentially free healing potions at all times on the 1-alt server?
I disagree.

Further, on the main server, I do not think you can just fill an inventory with Empty Flasks and drop them into some cauldron to get all of the Unknown Brews. If you can, it should never have been set to being possible.
However, the 1-alt server got this easy potion making because of a staff member who changed a bunch of things without consulting ANYONE else on the staff team.

The brews have basically been a bug that has been left to fester for ages.




The cost should not be all that much less than the cost of Advanced Healing Potions.
You can still buy Advanced Healing Potions anyway, so it isn't as if there are no full healing potions in-game.

Gaddy i mean no disrespect here, but, you don't even play the 1-alt server, nor have you played it enough to know what it takes to play the server, they absolutely are not free potions, you do know you have to spend 3 crystal rings to even get the guild ring to allow you to get into the area, do you know how long it takes to get 3 crystal rings for 1 person on the 1-alt server? And yes, you can do it on main, but it has little to no point on the main server, nobody can pk there, and the only thing people really use pots for is to pk, or to kill malok on thieves, on the 1-alt server everybody needs to use pots, not just thieves.

And before you go knocking that staff member who "didn't consult anyone", stop and take a look at all he did in that short ammount of time, expect a few bugs to be there, and no offense, but i don't see you trying to balance anything out, i just see you shooting down post's that have some actual meaning to this server, you know i have alot of respect for you as a player, and we have been friends for years, but you are wrong in this situation.

The logical thing to do would be to raise the price of brews to 100, leave the hp gain at 100, otherwise, what was the point of me taking my 3 crystal rings to turn into 1 guild ring? So i can go buy pots that are basically useless to me?

If the brews are going to to stay the way they are, then players should be given the opportunity to break down guild rings back to crystal rings, because im not going to pay 3 crystal rings for the chance at buying worse pots than i can just buy for 200 gold, essentially, the brews do cost more than the advanced healing potion, because of the investment put into them.

Plus you have to level a mage to 20 before you can even take advantage of the brews, because you have to cast vortex gate to even get into the room where you give the flask's to the cauldron.

Like i said, i don't mean any disrespect here, but you really need to take a look at everything that goes into it before you decide what is right or wrong.

Nothing you said disagrees with my post.
The potions were too cheap is basically the only thing I said.

Further, no, I do not play the 1-alt server, and so, I didn't edit the item.
I agree with it being changed though; potions should not be near free, no matter if you have produced a crafting ring or not.

[speedy]

her is an example it ook me and jp about 4 months if not more to get the 3 cr's for the guild ring its not easy to win a random ya know also to mark my bad dude i totally forgot about the pally glad u didnt take offense to that since there was none intented <3

[«¤ºxXl3úÐXxº¤»]

I did give Mark that thief. Mark was well enough before me however. Not to mention they are staff and have been for quite some time. I have to find it semi-laughable that anyone would claim to know more about a game than those that run it. You can say gaddy don't do anything on 1a, and mark isn't around much. They both have done things. Not only that. Reguardless of what they have done. They both have access to far more information and material than most. Also it would seem they are trusted by JLH. Finally gaddy as said above is a stickler for details. This can be a pain. I don't see him going into an argument with out having his facts straight though. Having this information at hand, and knowledge of how the game works. Working with balancing on a regular basis, and the experience he has gathered. How can you say he's not fit to make a decision.


About the breaking down bit. It's so unfair right? How about if your boss says here take this product that was built to work for 20, and now only works for one. Oh by the way it's already operational. It will not be shut down. It will not be held off. It will not be reset. Enjoy! Thats not fair either. It happened though. So as a player should you get some thing back because of a little(being a relavent term) change to the game. I think not.

Edited by «¤ºxXl3úÐXxº¤», 02 January 2009 - 09:53 AM.

[Dangerous]

Not Supported.

[Walt]

The main issue is the cost of Empty Flasks... originally they were 5 gold apiece, being cheaper than the cheapest potion going, the Basic Healing Potion. Unfortunately, 5 gold is too cheap for 75 HP, even with a Guild of Crafters Membership Ring; I would like to recommend something like 30 gold, or 25, as was mentioned above.

The cost per empty flask has been 50 gold for almost a year and a half now.

So, you should get---essentially free healing potions at all times on the 1-alt server?
I disagree.

How is sacrificing 3 Crystal Rings, as well as obtaining a level 20 mage with the spell vortex gate getting free healing potions?

Further, on the main server, I do not think you can just fill an inventory with Empty Flasks and drop them into some cauldron to get all of the Unknown Brews. If you can, it should never have been set to being possible.

From my understanding, talking with a few players who played main as well as 1a, the way to make the unknown brews is the exact same way on both servers. And from my understanding, it has always been this way.

The brews have basically been a bug that has been left to fester for ages.

You and I spent a bit of time talking about different things months ago when you went semi active on 1a Gaddy. Issues of balancing, between classes and races, different bosses, etc. This is the only "fix" the Team can come up with? It feels to me it is somewaht on the lines of how you fixed the whole "Malok Area being thieves only", by just simply reducing the resale value of the CK. Not only did that not fix an issue all the players on 1a had interest in, but it did not deter the ones who did train down there from just simpky still going down there, and still train in peace without fear of being pked by any other class. Quick fixes do not work, you and I both know that.

The cost should not be all that much less than the cost of Advanced Healing Potions.
You can still buy Advanced Healing Potions anyway, so it isn't as if there are no full healing potions in-game.

You can also take the crafting feature for the brews and mana water out of the game all together can you not? If you think that making brews is an economic disaster for NM, then remove it completely, from both servers. Also, give the players who took time in aquiring 3 Crystal Rings to make the Guild Ring an option to have those 3 rings returned to them. Yes, I can still buy Advanced Pots, and honestly, I would take this feature over taking 15-20 minutes every 2 days to make my stash of Unkown Brews and storing them in my vault. It would also free up alot of space in my account vault, as well as my clan house vault for other things I could have in there, instead of stored on "vault chars".

However, the 1-alt server got this easy potion making because of a staff member who changed a bunch of things without consulting ANYONE else on the staff team.

This one I will speak of only in ticket form only.

they need a new reason to pregnant dog when something doesnt go there way

FYI, I was speaking to JLH about this in MSN, and he is the one who told me to bring it to the forums so all could discuss. You sir, on the other hand, complain just about anything and everything(and yes, I have seen some things copy/pasted in pages).

Will deffinately make a Thief think twice about popping in on someone that can't be clicked. That's all thieves have going for them. Again, this hurts MAINLY thieves, especially the low levels with a Vampiric Dagger who can't essentially survive with the vampiric weapon alone. Always was my personal opinion that DoTW should never have existed on 1-ALT, it was an atrocity that put way too much money in the game. In my aspect, sacrificing Unknown Brews for more expennsive Advanced Potions takes money out of the game. SUCCESS

Sorry to inform you on this issue, but the only low lvl thieves this will hrut are the ones not in Pande, for as you see, only 2 members of this clan have less then arch thieves. And I will agree with you on this, taking gold out of the game will be a success, so why not just do away with the brew/mana water period?

[Cadabra]

The main issue is the cost of Empty Flasks... originally they were 5 gold apiece, being cheaper than the cheapest potion going, the Basic Healing Potion. Unfortunately, 5 gold is too cheap for 75 HP, even with a Guild of Crafters Membership Ring; I would like to recommend something like 30 gold, or 25, as was mentioned above.

The cost per empty flask has been 50 gold for almost a year and a half now.

So, you should get---essentially free healing potions at all times on the 1-alt server?
I disagree.

How is sacrificing 3 Crystal Rings, as well as obtaining a level 20 mage with the spell vortex gate getting free healing potions?

Further, on the main server, I do not think you can just fill an inventory with Empty Flasks and drop them into some cauldron to get all of the Unknown Brews. If you can, it should never have been set to being possible.

From my understanding, talking with a few players who played main as well as 1a, the way to make the unknown brews is the exact same way on both servers. And from my understanding, it has always been this way.

The brews have basically been a bug that has been left to fester for ages.

You and I spent a bit of time talking about different things months ago when you went semi active on 1a Gaddy. Issues of balancing, between classes and races, different bosses, etc. This is the only "fix" the Team can come up with? It feels to me it is somewaht on the lines of how you fixed the whole "Malok Area being thieves only", by just simply reducing the resale value of the CK. Not only did that not fix an issue all the players on 1a had interest in, but it did not deter the ones who did train down there from just simpky still going down there, and still train in peace without fear of being pked by any other class. Quick fixes do not work, you and I both know that.

The cost should not be all that much less than the cost of Advanced Healing Potions.
You can still buy Advanced Healing Potions anyway, so it isn't as if there are no full healing potions in-game.

You can also take the crafting feature for the brews and mana water out of the game all together can you not? If you think that making brews is an economic disaster for NM, then remove it completely, from both servers. Also, give the players who took time in aquiring 3 Crystal Rings to make the Guild Ring an option to have those 3 rings returned to them. Yes, I can still buy Advanced Pots, and honestly, I would take this feature over taking 15-20 minutes every 2 days to make my stash of Unkown Brews and storing them in my vault. It would also free up alot of space in my account vault, as well as my clan house vault for other things I could have in there, instead of stored on "vault chars".

However, the 1-alt server got this easy potion making because of a staff member who changed a bunch of things without consulting ANYONE else on the staff team.

This one I will speak of only in ticket form only.

they need a new reason to pregnant dog when something doesnt go there way

FYI, I was speaking to JLH about this in MSN, and he is the one who told me to bring it to the forums so all could discuss. You sir, on the other hand, complain just about anything and everything(and yes, I have seen some things copy/pasted in pages).

Will deffinately make a Thief think twice about popping in on someone that can't be clicked. That's all thieves have going for them. Again, this hurts MAINLY thieves, especially the low levels with a Vampiric Dagger who can't essentially survive with the vampiric weapon alone. Always was my personal opinion that DoTW should never have existed on 1-ALT, it was an atrocity that put way too much money in the game. In my aspect, sacrificing Unknown Brews for more expennsive Advanced Potions takes money out of the game. SUCCESS

Sorry to inform you on this issue, but the only low lvl thieves this will hrut are the ones not in Pande, for as you see, only 2 members of this clan have less then arch thieves. And I will agree with you on this, taking gold out of the game will be a success, so why not just do away with the brew/mana water period?

What he said.

[deadman]

I agree with Walt, quick little fixes do absolutely nothing to fix the actual problem and at times make it worse. If it's such a problem that empty flasks cost only 50 gold then why not raise it to 100 or 150. By making the hp regen 75 all you did was make a ton of people mad that they now wasted 3 crystal rings to make a guild ring when advanced healing potions are now better with no crystal rings necessary. It isn't even the easiest thing to obtain crystal rings on the 1alt server, so don't knock something that you don't play and say that it's fine that unknown brews get knocked to 75hp. If you don't play the server and see how things go how can you fix things you don't know how they are going to affect those that do play it.

[Ryan]

i think it needed to be changed... end.

[Ryan]

ftr, i have a gcr and i think free pots is dumb as well.. gaddy is right for once and yall are flaming him because you have to spend gold.. cry a little?... its funny to me that some of the richest players in the game are the ones bitching...

[deadman]

Agreed, it had to be changed, but price wise not hp wise.