76 replies to this topic

[Trevayne]

Read this. All of it. It's long, but it's a big, important change.

For the last few weeks, the staff have been discussing changes to make Nightmist more appealing to new players and ways to preserve the multi-alt server. Currently, we see an average of 8-12 players on the multi server, and usually no more than 2 of those players are outside of town. After discussions with almost all of the current players on multi, the staff have come to support one radical idea that we think gives the best hope of making a substantive change.

We are proposing to make the multi-alt server completely no-PK. There will be no change to the 1-alt server.

In coming up with this, we considered only ideas that could be implemented very quickly by JLH (this change requires the alteration of only one line of code). More complex solutions were discarded for the simple fact that we don't have the time committment from an admin to make them happen.

We also spent a very long time looking at what currently happens on the multi-alt server. The few people who still play on multi basically are quite happy to go about either working together or staying out of each others way. They like the fact that they can play solo, and they like not being a target of the non-stop PK fest that is the 1a server.

New players, when we are lucky enough to get them, tend to get killed multiple times within the first hour of getting to NM, leave, and never come back. We believe that having a no-PK server would allow new players to learn a bit about the game and get hooked before they venture out into the wilds of the 1a server.

The good things about this idea:

• A more gentle introduction for new players, if they want one.
• Relatively little change to current game play for active multi-alt players.
• We could start releasing new areas for multi. (The primary reason that development was on hold on multi was that making more area meant that people had less of a chance to run into other players and PK. If PK is not an issue, we can continue to expand as we wish.)
• Players could more easily use smaller numbers of alts, if they desire. There would be no pressure to run larger parties to protect against PKing, though players who want to run solo could still run large parties.
• Under-used areas would be more accessible to more players without the risk of PK.
• The resulting change could be easily reversed at a later date if it didn't work out.

The known problems (and some partial solutions);

• Bombs would be set to have zero damage, so anyone who put a lot of time or energy into making bombs would lose out a bit. (We might offer a bombs-for-bucks program that would allow existing bombs to be sold back to stores for some gold.)
• Pacifists would become slightly less useful. (They still have unique areas, unique spells, and a usefulness in game that will continue to make them popular.)
• Kill-stealing while training would become more of a problem. (While this is possible, if we get back to the number of people where this is an issue, I'd say we'd already succeeded. Also, popular training areas could be expanded.)
• Kill-stealing at bosses would become more of a problem. (This is quite likely the biggest problem we'd encounter. We're open to suggestions here.)
• Traps could still be used to kill parties. (Again, true... if it becomes a continuing problem, it might become a bannable offense.)

We know this is a somewhat crazy idea, but the time has come for crazy ideas.

This idea has the support of the staff but we are looking for player comment. This thread is not a discussion of the problems that resulted in this situation, and it is not a discussion of how the good the Good Old Days ™ were. The game has changed, and we need to work with what we currently have. We know that this will not solve all of our problems, and we know that it won't make everyone happy. We do think that it is our best bet for making NM start to grow again.

[Autek]

Fine by me. Nobody to my knowledge pk's anymore. . . And though I run into players 24/7 in popular areas like the museum, we're all fine with training in peace.

Quite frankly I'd be down for almost any change if it meant expanding the map, so I'm all for it.

EDIT: Also, it's great to see you guys more open for player input nowadays!

Edited by Autek, 24 October 2007 - 04:54 PM.

[katja]

i'm for it. it seems to be the most simple and effective way to get change. and it won't really interrupt how us few play the game right now anyway. anything to get new players hooked easier is a good idea.

[Gnarkill]

The idea is actually good but there is the problems you stated and the idea that if someone annoys a player or makes them mad they cant actually use thier negative energy to go pk them ..instead they would kill steal and crap talk constantly which ignorepc can take care of most of but I can forsee the playerbase (maybe not the oldies but some of the newer ones) complaining or needing staff to resolve stuff and with the staff busy and not on like they used to be I wonder if it might discourage people from the game by way of verbal harrasment and or kill stealing.

I'd also like to add 1a isn't a terrible pking place, not anymore then multi used to be .. it makes it fun.. I've played it a bit and only been caught and pkd maybe erm 5 times at the max on my chars.


In my argument for PKing ..sure you get hit from time to time but hey its part of the game, it gives it depth and gives you something to aim for .. to be honest when I started long ago in Wolves of Tyr I got killed constantly on main and it made me wanna get them back... I'd imagine if the game was non pk and I didnt get pkd and get mad enough to train and then enjoy pking later on when I had alts I doubt I'd have even played nm for more then a week. most of the fun in my opinion is having lil fights...

I can tell you that I don't remember alot of the game and times but I do remember Fanghorn was the first to kill me when i was training a fighter and gold makign for a 150k hally years ago... and within a couple weeks I killed it back. Some of my fondest memories of the game is the mini wars and fights I've had over the years...even with people who turned out to be good friends in the long run... Rookies get hazed in everything that they sign up for... so why not nightmist?

I don't play Multi at all anymore(no crits left) and I'm glad these changes will not take place for the times I actually do log on 1a, I just figured I would toss my input in as a person who loves the pk side of the game.

[Angelus]

The only 'edge' the game has is that there's a change you're gonna get pked. I've never been a pker, but I loved the tension it gives you when you're getting jumped. It motivates you to train more, without that motivation...well, just read below...

I've seen a game ones wich was just a chat box, you'd 'lvl' by how long you were logged on. The screen would just send messages out of itself, basically same as NM has, only you wouldnt influence it in anyway. Maybe make something like that then?

Glorified chat box ftw?

Edit:
In the end i do not care much about if it gets implented or not. You just asked for the two cents of the players and here's mine. I just dont think it'll have the desired effect.

Edited by Angelus, 24 October 2007 - 06:13 PM.

[Trevayne]

While I'm glad to be getting feedback, we're mostly interested in the opinions of the people who still actually play on the multi server as this change would effect them directly.

Also, please note that this will not change PKing on 1a (you'll still be able to PK there) and 1a will still be the primary focus for future developments of nightmist.

[PureMourning]

My opinion is a bit unconnected seeing I view the main server as cancer. However, I think the pros outweigh the cons, and like Trev said, it could always be put back to the original state.

Making any kind of change is valuable at this point in time, striving for new ideas. Also, good job for displaying a want of public opinion. I say do it!

Did I mention that main is cancer?

[katja]

people could still play the 1a server if they prefer the pk side of things... but i have seen a lot of people get harassed and repeatedly killed and called 'noobs' when they're trying to learn the game. you have to admit that once you finally get your first character to level 5 and someone starts stalking you on a level 15 character, it can be frustrating and dissuade people from returning.

this seems to give people the option to learn safely about the game, and if they like the pk aspect, they can play the 1a server. the main server has gotten fairly peaceful with us few that are left (from what i've seen) and the only people i see get killed are the VERY few new people that come along from time to time. most don't return.

[Neikan1]

well due to there being no pkers on main server is that everyone plays 1 alt and its hard to find someone to kill i ran around for hours the other night and ran into no one....thats why no one pks anymore on main server but due to the idea of not being able to pk i agree that boss ksing would be more and it would be annoying which would probably drive me away from the main server and everyone that also talks crap you could do nothing about it i support the ideas in some way but also strongly disagree with them.....nightmist has always been a pk game its the fun part trying to figure out were to go and not get pked thats what made it a challenge....

I also strongly agree with the aboved post when u get jumped and get owned it drives u to want to train and get better i know this because i have played nightmist for along time and quit and came back many times if no one pked me i would probably just sit around and do nothing all day and talk to people so in a way pkin helps the game but also hurts it due to me selling off all my main server stuff and going to 1 alt due to the lack of players do what makes the people that play happy but its jut my 2 cents also

Edited by Neikan1, 24 October 2007 - 07:21 PM.

[Rump]

I think its a great idea, like said b4, any change at this point would be nice.

i'm all for the change

Edited by Rump, 24 October 2007 - 07:20 PM.

[Desendent]

i have nothing against it b/c i dont pk people hardly ever and i dont really have people trying to kill me so it's almost indifferent to me although i would love new areas to be added so i support it

[Angelus]

Cant you make a very big area around NM. Like sewers/RG/large forest etc. etc. all nopk squares in the grid. So people still have something to lvl up to, to be able to wander far of to places u can get pked at. Where rewards are bigger (bigger drop/bosses).

Would mean squares need to be set to nopk instead of system. Just an idea that popped up.

Pk issues normale get dealt with by making it uninteresting for big players to pk small ones (penalty by exp etc). But if u think this will do it, by making everything nopk please do. Just throwing it in the middle.

[Trevayne]

There was a question about events and arenas. Let me clarify a few points:

• Moshes would continue to function as normal.
• Arenas (like Pete's) would continue to function as normal.
• Clan house arenas would continue to function as normal.
• Specialized events (like Capture the Flag) would not function immediately, but could be edited by staff (without requiring time from admins) to work under the new system.

Cant you make a very big area around NM. Like sewers/RG/large forest etc. etc. all nopk squares in the grid.

We also considered this, but this would require both far more extensive changes to the game engine (more time from admins) and weeks worth of effort from staff (in setting the grids). There is no way currently to make it so you can attack monsters on a grid square without being able to also attack players.

[Backwash]

I do support it it would be nice training somewhere with my nub crit's somewhere




[size=7]GO FOR GOLD!

[Autek]

My motivation to train has never been to get to a higher level and pk someone, it's always been to get my party higher level so I can take on tougher areas and bosses. In fact, the very few times that I've been 'jumped', it's just made me wonder why someone would want to ruin another person's day. I've never been the PvP type of person, and never will be.

I'd bet that there are a lot of players out there who don't bother themselves over the PvP aspect of the game. PvP only leads to egos, which is certainly detrimental to the game seeing as when egos clash it leads to petty arguments, likely involving profanity and personal attacks, which are completely unrelated to the game.

On a side note, I'm all for rival clans clashing and fighting, but just pking for the sake of pking is just malicious. Unless of course if someone were to be roleplaying a ruthless killer, which doesn't happen on multi as people pk on several alts at once. Pking on multiple alts at once does nothing for the roleplay aspect. A ruthless killer being roleplayed is far better suited for 1a, as it's actually possible to roleplay and develop a reputation for the character and not the player, like what would happen on multi.

More on topic, I do see the possibility of a problem with someone coming in a stealing a boss kill, but honestly, with the size of the player base now, that is quite unlikely to happen. Lots of bosses are in for hours these days, and with the size and levels of parties, they're killed in a matter of minutes. Lately I've been killing lots of commonly killed bosses and never bump into another soul, so again, I doubt it'd be an issue any time soon. If the player base grows to the point that it becomes a problem, it can be dealt with then.

[Crane]

I never saw this one coming!

Being almost totally non-PK even on non-Pacifists and generally being on peaceful terms with most other players, I'm okay with the change. In the past I used to be strategic in regards to where I trained and at what times of the day; even if the server is no-PK I may, out of habit, still hit-and-run in the Large Forest, not camping on a path that is likely to be swarming with opportunist PKers.

I'm definitely supporting the change if it means new items and areas can be released. From what I know of incomplete areas I would love to be able to see them from my party. That is a secondary reason though.

JLH turned down my request for bombs to be able to affect monsters a while back, so bombs will lose most of their appeal, although a cash-for-bombs scheme would certainly be nice. Prices I am not sure of though; Fire Bombs are not overly hard to make (maybe about 15-20k each or so), but the higher-end bombs like Fireburst Potions are worth several hundred thousand gold in terms of the value of their ingredients. I don't support setting the bombs to zero damage though, because then it removes their potential use in moshes and duels - I am hoping that it can be set so bombs cannot be used offensively at all outside of controlled no-holds-barred matched, like how you cannot use them in towns. Mana Leeching weapons will certainly lose some value, but if moshes and duels are still held then their use, like bombs, won't diminish entirely.

There is indeed a risk of some players becoming complete morons without the risk of being PKed, especially when it comes to trash-talking or stealing kills. This indeed could be the biggest backlash to the server being made no-PK, although hopefully this will be, to an extent, self-policing. Players getting harassed can just find another area to train in, since the risk of being PKed is not there, and the kill-stealer will not be invited on trips to areas like Chronos or Tirantek. And yes, as Trevayne pointed out, no PKing will allow newcomers to grow and learn in relative peace and harmony.

All in all, I support the server being made no-PK.

---

A little extra... I am kind of picturing the server-split and consequential reduction of players on the multi-server in a role-play sense, in that a bubonic plague or some major supernatural horror has wiped out most of the realm's population, leaving behind only a handful of survivors who have to put aside their differences in the hope of living to see the next generation. Making the server no-PK would tie into that quite nicely, and could make the basis of a quest... banding together and taking out the source of whatever killed the game's population (obviously, the boss should NOT be named "1-alt server" or "World of Warcraft"!!)

[Shapeshifter]

Ive not read though everything here, so i may be repeating ideas of others.

But to the two biggest problems that Trevayne pointed out, i see simpler solutions:

Monster KSing - It's annoying, but nothing can really be done about it, nothing to change, just leave it how it is.

Boss KSing - Set a limit to the ammount of players that can be on the square at the time. Similar to the 5 npc limit, would take some time, but would only have to be implimented on boss squares, making the size limit 20, so people who wanted to band together in huge parties, or run around with 20 alts themselves, wouldnt have to worry about losing the kill to a boss KSer.

Thankyou, and again, if i have repeated anyones ideas, i apologize.

[katja]

keep it as is. makes the game at least a little interesting. ty

you have to see that the game would only continue the downhill slump into oblivion if nothing is done.. the people that say there is nothing wrong with the game as it is, don't talk to people enough to notice that more and more people are quitting still. we need to think about encouraging new players to stick around most of all.. and we need to advertise the game and get new people to even know the game exists too.

people could still kill on 1a, and really... how much pk'ing goes on on the main server right now? it won't effect us that still log in much at all.

[«™®?¨CHaÏNY¨?™»]

I support this idea.
To me there is nothing worse than spending hours training a crit just to have someone come and pk you and you lose all your hard work. Time can never be replaced, the gold or item loss was never a big issue.
I remember when I started playing this game many years ago now and if I look over my kill list on my 1st char it must have a few hundred skeletal warrior kills because I leveled it from 1-26 in RH arenas purely because I hated being pked. I still managed to get sucked into the game though I'm sure there's still plenty to offer new fresh meat, it will just be with the added bonus that the only survival skill they'll need to learn is to keep their party alive from monsters not other players.

Supported!!

[Arsenal]

Although, it seems as though the overwhelming amount of you would like NM Multi to become NoPK I don't really support this idea. Although this does not seem as though it would be a bad idea, there are... problems as Trev has pointed out. I personally like the fact that you can PK in Nightmist Multi, although with the dwindling player base there is never anyone ever on to PK. I mean... if i can sit AFK virtually anywhere and not have to be bothered with the idea that I might actually get PK'd then maybe something is wrong? or there isn't enough people on to PK.

I have one alternative but I don't know how effective it would be. I propose that you bring back Arena training to Multi since there is virtually no one to PK. It solves the many of the problems and lets new players play the game without being killed every 5 seconds. Maybe this seems like a crazy idea, or out of the question, but wouldn't it work?

PK'ing although not a major part of the reason that I play Nightmist is part of the game. Maybe limiting PK'ing to 25+ or something so that one can train to somewhat of a higher level before they are exposed to PK'ing.

Just my thoughts....

Edited by Arsenal, 24 October 2007 - 09:04 PM.

[MysticStorm]

Arsenal, I brought the point up to trevayne when it was brought up to chat about putting a level limit on when you can pk and when you can't. I suggested level 30 though before you were able to pk and could only pk fellow level 30 crits. If you were lower than level 30, you couldn't attack a level 30 crit. Was told that the problem would be, people would just use a level 29 cleric to lead a bunch of level 30 crits around and would have a greater advantage over a party if they weren't using a level 29 cleric. I don't see a problem with this.

I'm against the non pk'ing aspect and I don't even pk. It's exactly like another player said, it's the thrill of possibility of being pk'ed that gets to me. It makes areas challenging. And as much as I would like to see maybe just a large area around Nightmist City non pk'able like grassy meadows, large forest, sewers, forest of lost souls non-pk'able. It would require time from JLH that he doesn't really have time to code in.

I just don't see this being a fix at all. Sure, changes are needed. There is going to be trash talking reguardless if the game is non pkable or not. People are going to get annoyed with other players reguardless. I just worry that even newer players will get bored more easily and either just chat and not play or just simply disappear if the game is non pkable.

[joanna]

My opinion is a bit unconnected seeing I view the main server as cancer. However, I think the pros outweigh the cons, and like Trev said, it could always be put back to the original state.

Making any kind of change is valuable at this point in time, striving for new ideas. Also, good job for displaying a want of public opinion. I say do it!

Did I mention that main is cancer?

If the main server is cancer then wtf is the 1 alt server? Bubonic plague??? The guy sat in the cockpit of the 9/11 jet? Cholera? Aids?

As for stopping pking, would be very interesting.....

[Shapeshifter]

To clear things up... My above post was in support of Trevayne's idea, and pointing out minor changes that would eliminate those problems.

Yes PKing is a big part of the nightmist we all know today, but it is not an INTEGRAL part, meaning that if it were to be removed, the integrety of nightmist would remain. It would bring popularity back to moshes and sparring arenas, because thats where people can still PK. There in allowing the ability to enforce bannability of verbal harrasment, and direct all of the pent up anger towards training for the next upcoming event, where there is the possibility that the person you're in such a heated arguement with, could possibly be just join the opposite team or hope you get paired up against him in a different mosh styling, then beat the stuffing out of them there.

I can list dozens of other free online games where PKing is actually a bannable offense. Making the server NO-PK with the ability to bounce to the 1Alt server if/when they decide that they could take being killed.

As Trevayne said, some of the other games (CTF being his mention) wouldnt function right away. But it wouldnt take much more than a simple change that staff can make to fix.

As someone who left the Multi-Alt server mainly because it became a battle of superior numbers, this is an attractive idea.

I also agree with Crane, this would be an awesome prospect to start a quest on, something to key off and kick off into the start of the Multi-server becoming known as the new NO-PK server.

[Desendent]

Boss KSing - Set a limit to the ammount of players that can be on the square at the time. Similar to the 5 npc limit, would take some time, but would only have to be implimented on boss squares, making the size limit 20, so people who wanted to band together in huge parties, or run around with 20 alts themselves, wouldnt have to worry about losing the kill to a boss KSer.

Thankyou, and again, if i have repeated anyones ideas, i apologize.

I think that is a terrible idea because what if somebody wants to have another person help them kill a boss quicker and they are both on 20 crits. Doesnt seem to make sense to me.

[joanna]

Another point...

Before Crafting came in, thief-only parties were useful only for PKing, unless you were ultra-rich and could afford to drop 50+k on pots for your party for each and every trip.

Then crafting came in, the beauty of it being the empty flasks and #124470's. With them, anyone could experience using a thief (or indeed druid) party for runs to almost all places.

Recently, because of over-use of them in 1-alt (ie people tossing hundreds of them into coli arenas) the price has been increaced by a factor of 10 (Yes, on the MULTI server too....)

Now yet again thief parties are only useful for PKing, unless you are one of the ultra-rich players who can afford the 25k+ per trip on pot.

If Pking is removed, might i suggest restoring the Empty Flasks to 5g on multi only as compensation to players who like using thieves but are not ultra-rich?

[Ganja]

Honestly i dont really agree with this making multi nopk i believe it should of been the 1a server
to be the nopk if you think about it everyone talks about how you have to work together over there
but yet its one big pk fest and basically 1 clan running the show.
ya it would be sweet to see some new areas added into multi but multi server doesnt need to be a complete nopk server just for that to happen if people want to get used to the game and have a good place to start i feel it should be the 1a server considering on multi server your meant to use multiple characters and and a solo environment and most noobs who start out dont exactly start running 20 alts they are usually only running 1 character and then working their way up slowly so i dont support this idea unless its brought upon 1a the way it should of been and not multi

[Shapeshifter]

Forgive my mistake, I was only using 20 as an example...

But in the aspect of making the boss squares imited to the number of characters that can sit on it, does solve the ability of boss ksing.

Maybe basing it on the aspect of how many players it would take to kill said boss within an hour or two.

With everything that is going on in 1a now, it would be pointless to make it nopk. people would loose interest and either leave completely or sit idly by. The point, as i see it, in leaving 1a to be the pk server, you are selected down to 1 or a handfull of alts to become the notorious killer. Your notoriety goes to your characters, using my name as an example, you become.. Shapeshifter/Fang - the notorious PK characters. Instead of, again using my name, Tommy - the guy that runs 20 alts just to flock around and hunt players.

[Arsenal]

Not to say anything against what everyone has said... but... This is geared for people who actually play Multi? right? *cough cough, Shapeshifer *cough* not that I have anything against you, but why would NM Multi going to NoPK affect you in any way? It wouldn't therefore you are more free to express an open opinion about it.

[Shapeshifter]

Not to say anything against what everyone has said... but... This is geared for people who actually play Multi? right? *cough cough, Shapeshifer *cough* not that I have anything against you, but why would NM Multi going to NoPK affect you in any way? It wouldn't therefore you are more free to express an open opinion about it.

A bit off topic, but to clear your confusion look above to my second posting in this topic, or read the following quote from it.

As someone who left the Multi-Alt server mainly because it became a battle of superior numbers, this is an attractive idea.

[katja]

as i see it, 1a is exactly where the pk'ing should be allowed... it's more fair since it's 1 on 1 (unless people gang up on new players or whatever) it gives the newer person a fighting chance... on the main server, new people wouldn't have mass parties to defend themself with, so someone could come along on 20 alts and stomp them into the ground. making it nopk would make it safer to play on small parties.

and tommy, as for your boss square crit limit idea.... wouldn't jerks just sit there on mass alts and block up the square so no one else can get in? sit on 20 thieves covert so the boss can respawn, but no one else could get in?

i agree that if kill stealing becomes a problem, it means there are more people playing and would have to be dealt with then.. for now it can be done, but no one does it.. so it's not yet a problem.