31 replies to this topic

[Silver_Dragoness]

There need to be an alternative leveling system on main. Some people are having a hard time finding bosses in (especially for thieves). Ranger and Fighters have easiest lvling item requirements. And something to help with the economy too so I don't have to pay my gold to someone a certain amount that already has a crap ton of gold. Malok hasn't been dropping worth crap lately and no one is really willing to sell thief items. It's getting pretty frustrating. I don't want my thieves sitting at lvl 30 forever tryin to find someone to sell me an item or actually finding a boss in.

[Gaddy]

Thief alternatives are Emerald Dagger, Ilythiiri Keeshe, Mithril Claws, Frostborn's Razor, and Mithril Sword.

This was done for thieves and berserkers because it was such a challenge when only 2 items worked for each. The Main-server playerbase keeps deciding to level sets of 16+ thieves or berserkers at a time; so folks are setting themselves up for this headache. I think 5 options is more than any other class has for leveling, and I don't agree with deciding to make the system easier for folks now after years of others getting over the hurdles to level 31+.

[Silver_Dragoness]

Not everyone can do bosses. I can't because of kids requiring my attention every few moments and I can't make my husband take care of them every time I want to do a boss. Also not everyone wants to sell items. It's hard to find leveling items for thieves. I think we should be able to choose if we want to spend gold on more tokens like with the grandmaster tokens. Otherwise, crits are going to be sitting at 30.

[Slam]

not only that but alot of people cannot paly all day ie kids work and what not and when everything is dead every day when people do get to play yea id agree to some changes even though most my nuts is 31+ already i mean what i get to hit 1 boss a day if im lucky and say i wanted to train more thieves or something itd be pointless due to the fact yea i have no access to the items cause i have no access to the bosses it is pretty lame to train that high and get stuck for something that ones self cannot help

[Gaddy]

I could support a level 31 token that cost a really high price.
This would allow bypassing the leveling system, while still strongly encouraging players to use the route that has been in-place. It would basically just mean that players could not be completely prevented from leveling characters.

However, I expect that if staff put it in, the cost would be 3-7m and people would be angry that it even existed.

[Gaddy]

not only that but alot of people cannot paly all day ie kids work and what not and when everything is dead every day when people do get to play yea id agree to some changes even though most my nuts is 31+ already i mean what i get to hit 1 boss a day if im lucky and say i wanted to train more thieves or something itd be pointless due to the fact yea i have no access to the items cause i have no access to the bosses it is pretty lame to train that high and get stuck for something that ones self cannot help

The system is rough when leveling 10+ of the same class at the same time, but if it was easy for 10+, it would be next to zero challenge to get a couple that would be normal for a person leveling a party of characters, rather than just a group of thieves.
Sure, Concealing Petal Armor could be the leveling item needed for thieves. Or Midnight Tunic that way it's never boss dependent. However, does removing challenges from Nightmist make it a better game?


I mean, Malok and Bodyguards are inside of towns. So yes, Malok is killed most of the time he spawns, but you can check him very easily, which is why he's killed so often.
Bodyguards are alive most of the time. High Priestess Ku'Nal used to be in most of the time (I haven't been there lately). Bolted Chest isn't camped as hard as Malok. Credenza is probably the hardest option to find because it's camped so hard relative to spawn rate.
But I feel like this is about scapegoating instead of trying to work to solve the challenge. Do people really try to go for all of the options, or is this taking frustration and directing it at staff who don't think the challenge should be removed?

[Terron]

the items used for 31+ should all be universal.  It should just be a list of items you can use period. Its a party server One party with a certain character setup shouldn't see favoritism, regardless if its 20 of the same class or consists of 2-3 of every class.

 

 I've noticed a few flaws in the current system and they were really easy to spot.  

 

flaw #1 theres like 2000 thieves ingame, dotw is a direct result

flaw #2 rangers cant realistically even kill an SK

flaw #3 paladins can buy wizard cuffs and level(significantly lower than 3-7m)

theres more but these are the major ones i've noticed.

[Slam]

it is flawed but im starting to think that people who have payed dues and already have things high and have payed the toll might not want it changed but even putting a 1 mill tag on a lvl 31 which is the general cost of thief and zerker lvling items wouldnt be bad but i mean yea doubt it gets any better on that note i personally dont need leveling items and am no where near but some classes yes can use vendor bought and i beleive fighters can buy the white ring in bt and paladins the wizard cuffs so basically 500k to lvl those yet 1 mill to someone if you can find someone selling or hell look at the rate of druid lvling items even worse and to be honest to lvl in a game there shouldnt be that big of a hang up in general it does ruin the grinding part of the game hence you hit a limit and its not maxed out not to mention bossing yourself yea gaddy understand you havent been places in awhile but someone has had bolted chest kunal and all on lock down and dont blame him he needs the items just like everyone else so point being its not a fair system not really unless you have all day to sit at boss spawns or farm the gold to buy off someone if someone is selling which shouldnt be needed to lvl a crit in my opinion

[Terron]

I think most of the problem lies in the fact that the items were piled up to begin with right when the system was introduced.  Most of the higher level characters depleted the stockpile so to speak.  Now you are left with any future party needing to gather a significant amount of drops, hopefully,  before the party caps on exp.

 

Same could be said about platinum coin and gold sovereign items. its like 10 years of items with a server that seen more alot more players.  all funneled down into a smaller group of accounts.  Realistically if you took the number of current plat/sovereign items ingame it would take the smaller playerbase more than 20 years to gather the same amount.

[Silver_Dragoness]

I wouldn't want it all gold based for those that really like doing the bosses and can. But I think there should be a better alternative for those that can't. It's just a matter of choice. Playing a game shouldn't be this difficult or a headache. It should be fun and people aren't going to have fun if they can't get level their characters after a certain level. I hate that I have invested so much time in this game this last year and not able to go anywhere else on classes that I like to play. If I had known this (I was gone for 10 years and left after the leveling system was put into place) I wouldn't have come back if I knew how much of a pain in the butt it was going to be to level on a game. 

[Sneaky]

There is an alternative for those that can't do bosses, it's called buying items off players. Looking on the wanted section, there's only one post recently looking for leveling items. You don't know what people have on alts if you don't ask. 

 

There's only one item hurdle for leveling, from 30-31, then its nothing for almost a billion xp, and then it's gold based. It's already pretty easy, in my opinion, especially compared to 1a. 

 

Just a head's up, this grind isn't going to get any easier -- all top end equipment post-30 is either a boss drop and/or crafted using platinum coins, which are exclusively boss drops. The game is designed to get out and explore, not train non-stop in the same area. 

[Gaddy]

it is flawed but im starting to think that people who have payed dues and already have things high and have payed the toll might not want it changed but even putting a 1 mill tag on a lvl 31 which is the general cost of thief and zerker lvling items wouldnt be bad but i mean yea doubt it gets any better on that note i personally dont need leveling items and am no where near but some classes yes can use vendor bought and i beleive fighters can buy the white ring in bt and paladins the wizard cuffs so basically 500k to lvl those yet 1 mill to someone if you can find someone selling or hell look at the rate of druid lvling items even worse and to be honest to lvl in a game there shouldnt be that big of a hang up in general it does ruin the grinding part of the game hence you hit a limit and its not maxed out not to mention bossing yourself yea gaddy understand you havent been places in awhile but someone has had bolted chest kunal and all on lock down and dont blame him he needs the items just like everyone else so point being its not a fair system not really unless you have all day to sit at boss spawns or farm the gold to buy off someone if someone is selling which shouldnt be needed to lvl a crit in my opinion

Please use punctuation and paragraphs to help make your writing clear?
I really cannot understand a significant portion of your post. Sorry to be a bit rude here.


Yes, leveling is different for different classes, and it is easier to get a the gear for fighters than thieves, druids, or berserkers. However, that was part of the design - to require Sovereign Sword for fighters and paladins was not considered reasonable. I could see bumping the items up for some classes, such as fighter, mage, paladin, and cleric. But I don't think it's necessary.
I know Druid leveling is rough. I've done 8+ druids to level 31. It was REALLY rough when only Ceramic Javelin was an option. So Chameleon Horn was inserted as an alternative to the ~4m gold Ceramic Javelins. The same has been done with thieves and berserkers by adding Frostborn's Razor and Mithril Sword options. It's certainly possible because several other players continue to level thieves and berserkers, myself included.



What should be needed to level a crit to a big milestone like beyond archmaster, in your opinion?
Just experience is lame for the major milestone of breaking past limits of archmaster. What do you think should be the leveling switch for levels 31+?
Should there be something different from 1m gold for levels 36-40?
I see complaints without recommended solutions.

[Terron]

It seems to be more designed on leaving 20 covert thieves around the grid with spyglasses(or pacifists) and slaughter every boss as fast as possible while making everyone else's explorations unfruitful.  Mind you that anyone can do this which is fair, but its not a legitimate reason to not have an alternate leveling system.

 

If its really a bossing system why isn't there always bosses in for everyone to enjoy multiple times a day.  even if there was, the spawns would have to be so fast that massive accounts couldn't hog them all in hourly cycle. lol  

 

Maybe just have a guild tent that allows you to use a different classes leveling item for the item and 500k/1m money order.  I suggest the non shop buy ones.

 

an example  you can level a thief using 2 sgs and the money order or something else entirely

[Terron]

not a party, persay, just checkers in general, since the bosses are usually dead in minutes, spying that spawn immediately means its usually dead before the next person has a chance.

 

it was a metaphoric reply.  It is a bossing system.  that's where the items come from.

 

"IF its really a bossing system why isn't there always bosses in for everyone to enjoy multiple times a day.  even if there was, the spawns would have to be so fast that massive accounts couldn't hog them all in hourly cycle."

 

ofc it's not a raid system, raids are every day at set times and everyone partakes.  Not just the one lucky person that catches a banshee or malok spawn.

 

now for the topic at hand, is using an alternate classes leveling item combined with gold an adequate suggestion to keep the server item based and still allow leveling characters post 30?

[Gaddy]

^This post is responding to a post that I deleted before response because I didn't want to drag us off topic. It makes 100% sense and answers my questions.


Response about switching leveling items between classes:
I don't think the system is so broken that a sweeping fix is needed. If something is changed, I would hope it is directed toward thief and berserker leveling gear to help the specific bottleneck instead of sweeping changes to the whole system.

This makes every class have tons of routes. However, only a few classes have difficulty within the current system (thief, berserker, druid) - and usually only when they are leveled as sets of 8+ at a time. So I would address that rather than just eliminating the leveling system as it stands.




Other topic within the topic: Why is there a bottleneck?
Personally, I like the unintended consequence of the leveling system as it is - encouraging players to use multiple classes. Leveling 20 thieves or 16 berserkers at once is an option, but it creates a real big challenge when it is time to go for level 31.
The same would be rather difficult for 16 of any class - though easier to solve for some classes. However, if you level a mix of characters together, they don't overlap all that much and are not as hard to level to 31 at similar times. They also level at different rates so you don't have to dump everything all at once.

People know they're setting themselves up when they level 16 of the same class at the same time, or if they don't, they could have known since all of the info is posted on the Wiki.
So three people decide to level sets of berserkers and two decide to level sets of thieves - and suddenly the whole system should be overhauled to make it easier for them than it has been for the dozens of players before them? I don't agree.

[Terron]

I agree with you gaddy about a complete overhaul, but I still fail to understand how it would be easier than it has been for the older players.

 

yes the older players paid the exact items new players want to avoid.  but I myself have probably contributed 15-20 emerald daggers to the game before the system then I left for 1a.  those items were used by those older players in which you are saying had a harder time. I'm just 1 player, the fact that 50 players likely have similar stories is proof that the older players didn't have it as hard as you're thinking, they merely stayed on multi and bought the items with gold and leveled.

 

same could be said with gold costs on 1a, just because a select few people made it to 40 then doesn't really mean the future playerbase should be paying the same costs.  the game has evolved from a 1 character server where you hoard gold for cobalt and leveling and constantly avoid pks to a game that you are forced to use a wide variety of alts or you plain out suffer.   the pks basically just made you make even more gold before you were red for level.

 

I think its always going to boil down to that same phrase we've seen on posts again and again.

 

 "When will we have the ability to train on what we want and level when we want"

 

On the flip side of this argument

in the past there were always dozens of players that played merely for RP, talking, or just for fun. Typically these players were clerics druids and paladins and a sparatic few other classes. they played to just mess around and blow off some steam, or waste some time clicking pictures in the top left corner.  Most of this type of player didn't take the game seriously they just played for shiggles.  what irks me the most is that these systems have left nothing for a casual player, hence why they are gone.

[Gaddy]

Everything that existed for casual players still exists. Nothing was taken away from the game when level 31+ was added to Main.

There are 5 options for thieves and berserkers ensure players with different styles could go after the required drops.
If you cannot or will not chase the boss options, you can purchase the leveling items like many players have done.


However, this post is about thieves and berserkers still hitting a bottleneck. And I'm not saying no options should be assessed or brought into the game.
I don't like the recommendation of using other classes routes for everything - essentially eliminating the whole system because a couple of current players feel like they cannot get thieves leveled.

I am also challenging those players to assess if they've sought all options. I have the sense that it's a fixation on one aspect instead of seeking alternative routes. Sure, suggest alternatives if the system is flawed, but I don't think it means you break the system apart if it's worked for years and dozens of players before.

[Terron]

Nothing has been taken from them directly, they were level 30 in 2005 and would still be level 30 now if they wanted or could have grinded gold and bought an item to progress further.  Or even made a feeble attempt to kill a boss with a single character or a small inefficient party.  Either way they left for some reason. they didn't stay and almost none of them used the leveling system, so it was obviously not appealing to them.

 

I understand that there are 5 items for berserkers and thieves.  this thread is about Alternate Leveling System not only about thieves and berserkers. it may affect those classes the most because they are truely the only realistic options the game offers for future use of csotw/dotw. ranger vamp bows are unrealistic and the vamp for fighters etc aren't really reliable, you know this.  

 

Multiple class parties aren't the best option. you'll be average at best.  The appeal is there, and personally I like multiple class parties but half the classes at GM do less damage than an expert berserker.  I think it makes more sense to focus a party for specific tasks and play to their strong points, if its 20 thieves it is what it is.

 

either people will stop leveling and the items will pile up, or there will be a legitimate reason to keep leveling and the items will be continually removed from the server.  Nothing will stop this.

 

I just feel that we divide this game into too many categories.  balance this, vamp that, boss this , item that.  The game is simple, should be simple, was meant to be simple and should be user friendly, not veteran friendly.  Veterans will stay if the like the game.

 

 Its clear that berserkers, thieves, and rangers/druids have some of the harder leveling items.

 You may laugh at the ranger statement but they cant pk sk really.

 

Maybe were just asking the wrong questions.  If the system is balanced then perhaps they wouldn't be leveled in groups of 16 if the other classes weren't so inadequate.

[Gaddy]

You're making up surrounding points and data without talking about the topic. What is a practical change or alternate leveling system?

You've agreed that the system works well enough that an overhaul isn't justified or needed. That's my primary point.



Please don't cop-out with "they're all related." Of course retention of players and balance of classes are related to almost every topic, but that doesn't mean we have to talk about the 30 things associated with keeping players interested in the game each time a specific topic comes up. This is about leveling Main characters to 31, with a focus on thieves.

[Terron]

Its about an alternate leveling system as written in the title.

 

the first posts had derailed it into alterations to a current system, the first reply was uh...you. 

 

if there is no reason to doubt the current, utterly perfect system then delete every response that doesn't deal with an actual different system altogether.

 

just ftr that would leave 0 replies

 

 

How bout importing the 31-35 crate system from 1a, setting gold ingot to cost 200k instead of 100k, and just make 30-31 take 5 of the available crates. leaving a few options in that 15 monsters will drop items and u have to farm the 5 of your choice.

 

Hooray for the only response relative to the title.

Edited by Terron, 01 February 2016 - 09:44 PM.

[Cadabra]

If bosses require exploration, why can you log 20 alts a square away?

 

Make everywhere  log-to-local. 

 

Simple.

[Gaddy]

If bosses require exploration, why can you log 20 alts a square away?

Make everywhere log-to-local.

Simple.

The game being log-to-local would certainly balance quite a bit of the playing field, and that would help with how some of the drops associated with leveling to 31 are camped / horded.


I got pushback on making more areas L2L because it takes a lot of time to edit the grids. I didn't think it was more than just changing one grid-stat, but it could be that you have to overwrite quite a bit of data. Tough since there is only a single active staff member - lot of burden of decision and work to dump on Stig.
Would be nice if more of the game was L2L though...at least boss related locations.

[Gnarkill]

I'd agree to making everything L2L! People would still find ways around it.. like setting a checker's local very close to certain bosses that are near towns.. in which case you'd either have to still deal with that or consider removing the ability to local your crits in certain pubs.

 

I think the leveling system is fine as is.. its far easier than 1a and even if you can't boss yourself you can normally find items to purchase for reasonable prices from those that do boss.. it just requires a lil bit of patience sometimes when items aren't readily available. The only thing I've had a problem leveling when it was time was my pacifist and that was back when I couldn't solo the area on a level 30 and not many others were either so I had to wait almost a year until a mask came up to purchase(for millions). The main reason the supply and demand is so off right now is the fact that multi is busier these days and people like to level full parties or close to of one class(I'm guilty of this myself).. it would be hard for any size player base to keep the #'s of leveling items in stock when one person can come along and eliminate 15-20 of them from the game for just one of their parties. Keep in mind these items aren't 100% drop rate and the boss spawns aren't more than once a day often times. I'd be cool with it staying how it is.

 

I did think of a couple options to add to the discussion:

 

1. Make it so you cannot turn in any class's leveling items in exchange for platinum coins . If I remember right there are a couple on there.. you would have to replace them by making other boss drops available for coin trade in..  but it would also stop the leveling items from being used up for platinum coin trade in.

 

2. Make a way to trade a certain amount platinum coins for a generic leveling item that any class can use.. but make this option far more expensive and less practical than boss hunting yourself or buying from other boss hunters.

 

Otherwise, like I said I am fine with it staying the way it is and I don't wish any of this work on Stig  

Edited by Gnarkill, 03 February 2016 - 11:59 PM.

[Terron]

There need to be an alternative leveling system on main. 

 

Alternative not alteration.  The alteration department has 15 ideas and no staff input, it is obviously beat to death.

 

Anyone have an alternative system idea?

[xxx]

i have an idea. Make more piddies.

[Gnarkill]

I didn't suggest an alternative because I don't think an alternative leveling system is needed.. I don't even think the altercations suggested are needed... I was just trying to be nice and post something that may help with the availability of leveling items for gold purchase from players that boss for those that "can't find bosses in" or "can't/do not wish to/don't have the time to boss".. you know.. the main complaints on this thread. 

 

However, Since others are having problems I would support something like the crate system on multi if it was well thought out and revamped completely for 10-20 alt parties before being implemented. I'd think it would have to be different items than 1a's from harder mobs/areas with low drop rates since you can clear areas quick with a big party.

 

Another idea would be a fragment system(similar to magimox frag system in a way).. You could have things like all minor bosses(pede, croc, bl, gcb, mayor, natura boss, winged vamp, olist, elshira, bigfoot, smithy ect ect.. just a few examples) have a small % chance to drop 1 of these fragments and so many fragments would add up and eventually be traded in for a universal class coin or token to level to 31. It would still be boss based but have options that most everyone can kill/get to easily once they establish a small party with some even being able to be solo'd or ran with low levels. You could also set certain mobs in unfrequented areas to drop the fragments at a low rate if you really wanted. The main thing with this would be figuring out what drops the fragments, the drop rate %s for everything that does and how many fragments would = 1 leveling coin or token.

Edited by Gnarkill, 04 February 2016 - 08:45 PM.

[Terron]

excellent suggestion.  The mini-bosses and other hourly* bosses like wolf lord (most likely its pelt) would make an excellent alternate, while keeping the boss kill theme. and every player will find these in atleast sometime. Keys and other less important artifacts like water ring, briar ring, marcus's ring etc would make excellent items to put in for a finished leveling item.

 

A system like this would also promote that theory that advisor's/staff always tell you on forum.  The OL'  you can play 3alt or 5alt on the main server.   I mean, I shouldn't say that you couldn't actually play 3-5 alts, because you most definitely could before.  You'd just quit like everyone else that tried. But this would allow a player to choose that "format" and succeed for once.  I wouldn't even put it past myself to log on a single character to mess around on, if the chance of success is there, especially with the option of alt support whenever you need it.

[Slam]

 

it is flawed but im starting to think that people who have payed dues and already have things high and have payed the toll might not want it changed but even putting a 1 mill tag on a lvl 31 which is the general cost of thief and zerker lvling items wouldnt be bad but i mean yea doubt it gets any better on that note i personally dont need leveling items and am no where near but some classes yes can use vendor bought and i beleive fighters can buy the white ring in bt and paladins the wizard cuffs so basically 500k to lvl those yet 1 mill to someone if you can find someone selling or hell look at the rate of druid lvling items even worse and to be honest to lvl in a game there shouldnt be that big of a hang up in general it does ruin the grinding part of the game hence you hit a limit and its not maxed out not to mention bossing yourself yea gaddy understand you havent been places in awhile but someone has had bolted chest kunal and all on lock down and dont blame him he needs the items just like everyone else so point being its not a fair system not really unless you have all day to sit at boss spawns or farm the gold to buy off someone if someone is selling which shouldnt be needed to lvl a crit in my opinion

Please use punctuation and paragraphs to help make your writing clear?
I really cannot understand a significant portion of your post. Sorry to be a bit rude here.


Yes, leveling is different for different classes, and it is easier to get a the gear for fighters than thieves, druids, or berserkers. However, that was part of the design - to require Sovereign Sword for fighters and paladins was not considered reasonable. I could see bumping the items up for some classes, such as fighter, mage, paladin, and cleric. But I don't think it's necessary.
I know Druid leveling is rough. I've done 8+ druids to level 31. It was REALLY rough when only Ceramic Javelin was an option. So Chameleon Horn was inserted as an alternative to the ~4m gold Ceramic Javelins. The same has been done with thieves and berserkers by adding Frostborn's Razor and Mithril Sword options. It's certainly possible because several other players continue to level thieves and berserkers, myself included.



What should be needed to level a crit to a big milestone like beyond archmaster, in your opinion?
Just experience is lame for the major milestone of breaking past limits of archmaster. What do you think should be the leveling switch for levels 31+?
Should there be something different from 1m gold for levels 36-40?
I see complaints without recommended solutions.

 

Well you right i've never been much for puncuation. Now one thing i can suggest is boss to drop items specifically for leveling that someone isnt going to horde for plat coins. In that alone should fix some of the problems. make it be items that the boss is more likely to drop like say an uncommon not a rare. If it is a problem with these items floating around server never being used make them shop sellable for a small fee to clean up the mess god knows theres a ton of things in game to spend gold on not just some boss horders stash. Now im not saying make the items sell to vendors for a high price that would be absurd and defeat the point. But i see that being the bigger issue their not common to get to drop they are used for plat coins ofcourse so they get blown into other pieces of equipment that is needed so why can we have something that is used just on a level bases not to increase another piece of equipment and have its drop more common what would that hurt. Oh wait right might hurt someone whos played for the past 10 years and did it this way when they didnt havent to buy the items or try to beat other players to a boss thats why the plat system was put in no player base to support the items droping. but with more people coming in that system is broken and affecting it negativly. what was done for 3 or 4 people wont server for 10 or more plain in simple. its not unfair its just a change for the player base.

[Slam]

hopefully you understand that better understand what ya mean and probably should have spaced it more can see how it all mumbled together can get it thrown off

[Kataklysm]

ok since i rolled n lvl 15 horc zerks i think i quallify for putting my 2 cents in. Ok first off the people here saying that they dont have time to camp bosses and such for items due to they dont get much playing time well srry to say this game is 1 long giant grind wasent designed for weekend warriors to gather n make god partys so if ya cant camp or grind i sugest you quit n go play hello kittie or candy crush #2 the lvling system is ok the only real problem i found that was absolutly retarded and made the lvl sytem weak was killing bosses n not gettin a drop in 40 kills nobody should have to kill a boss 40times to lvl 1 crits nobody so i thought about it and the logical solution is changing the random spawn generator from 24hours to like 20 will give a xtra spawn a day here n there and will end result give a xtra drop or 2 a week with out devalueing a item buy changing drop rate n flooding the market and will give more people a slight chance to find the boss they may need in lil more frequently should solve most of the problems without altering much of the game and making it easier on people