42 replies to this topic

[Äññöÿäñcë]

Seems to be a lot of fuss about this item, probably one of the main reasons why thieves on 1a are so powerful and easy to level, so I ask you this.. Why not just make it more expensive? Or even better, take away the vampiric properties and put them on the Ilythiiri Keeshe

[Gaddy]

IK would be too powerful on the 1-alt server with vampiric properties.
Bone Skewer like items should probably be very held back until other classes have similar as well.


I have always wondered if a better solution to the Dagger of the Winds training would be to develope similar items for certain other classes---not all I don't think.
Perhaps lowering the base damage as well.

It is difficult because you don't have to use a weapon constantly to be proficient with it. It'd be nice if characters had certain skill with the weapon they used, and lost that skill over time using other weapons---so that players wouldn't be able to use DotW to train and then Emerald Dagger just as well to PK.
Dunno, and even then---the daggers would probably make since to have the same skill type setup...so maybe that's not logical.
Eitherway---this would require an overhaul type of coding....so more feasible solutions.


1. Releasing similar weapons for other classes, like mini-cobalts. But this could make everything a bit too easy and ruin clerics completely.

2. Lower the vamp and base damage on Dagger of the Winds.


If the damage is lowered and stuff---how do we prevent having thief characters entirely unbalanced by those who started training earlier?
How do we make up the cost to the players who've bought DotW?

If similar items are opened up, how do we balance them?

[Walt]

Why not just make it more expensive? Or even better, take away the vampiric properties and put them on the Ilythiiri Keeshe

Supported 100 million percent multiplied by pi.




(Only because I have the only one in game.)

[speedy]

my question is why lower the bd look at infor for katana and dotw there the same bd so u use the same bd weapon from lvl 20 on just get vampric at 25 i agree make it a lil more expensive but its still a lot to pay for i personally had 2 borrow gold to get mine at 25 but eh that just me i guess

[Nerutically]

I say lowering the bd and vamp is a good solution.. The DotW is 350k witch is a pretty good amount but lets be real after that training becomes free?

"If the damage is lowered and stuff---how do we prevent having thief characters entirely unbalanced by those who started training earlier?
How do we make up the cost to the players who've bought DotW?"

I honestly dont know how to make it fair by those who started ealier but lets be real we didnt punish the clerics/pallys that traind before the +20 was removed nor did we punish the people who made most there exp before gate training was taken away.

For the cost.. If the player sees no more value in the DotW i say make the sell back price 250k or so..

[Äññöÿäñcë]

OR, even better.

Increase the level where you can use DoTW, and if you want to take it further - increase the base damage by one or two and let it be equipped at level 32 or something. This will mean that people will have to train 1-30 beforehand with use of clerics, and if you can get to such a level with using clerics and other means of training this is a good reward for getting there.

And for the current thief users, welll this is why we have beta-testing and stuff. Nothing can really be done about it now, but we could atleast fix the dagger of the winds for the future?

[Gaddy]

My current problem with solving this is that the staff team would get an overall "boo".
The following things are problems-
1. "You raised cost and level after SOME OF YOUR FRIENDS got to use them!"
2. "You ruined thieves. I hate the game and you now."
3. "How about you balance xxxx because xxxx isn't fair either, this is bias."
4. "Why didn't you solve it this way instead..."
5. "Blah blah blah, I'm a flamer."

There is not a fair way to balance this out.
Increasing the cost gives current players a big bonus, which doesn't seem fair.
Increasing the level needed means the current thieves had a huge advantage in getting to where they are...
Making these kind of items for all classes might make the game over-run with ease or something.

I don't know. I haven't seen anything laid out in enough detail to really look into them..

[Äññöÿäñcë]

lol @ i hate the game and you now


well, tbh you cant please everyone. and something has to be done because the dotw is majorly overpowered at the moment

[Nerutically]

Yeah some players are gonna complain, some will of had the advantage of using it before hand, but in the end we all know that this item is way to overpowerd and over used for the thief class and something has to be done like annoyance said..

There have been other situations where other classes and players had problems with but in the end what happend? Staff modified it for the best of the game and not the players intrest at that time.. Staff team will get a boo from all the thief users aka Everyone? At first but mabe if the dotw gets changed people might... omg... Train something else?

I still say either lower the vamp and bd or rase the level requirement (Not like that will do much sense everyone already has a lvl 30+ thief these days) ... and/or dont even mess with the dotw but make thiefs assassinate minimum back to how it was before that update and make assassinate go through less armor or Just get rid of the dotw all together and give just give everyone who has one the gold back..

Edited by Nerutically, 06 July 2008 - 04:25 PM.

[speedy]

this is for Nerutically wth are you on 1a b4 i post anymore and possibly argue with you cuz if u dont even play the server your opinon dont really matter

[Nerutically]

this is for Nerutically wth are you on 1a b4 i post anymore and possibly argue with you cuz if u dont even play the server your opinon dont really matter

Opinon?

Everyone knows this item is a problem that is not an opion that is a fact. Gaddy has said himself that it needs to be balanced. What we are trying to figure out here is how to make it balanced without doing anything rash. Witch is what my post suggest. I was simply replying to Gaddys about how players will "boo".

[Gaddy]

I don't play 1-alt either.

Anyway---
What about when mages were so awfully overpowered and they killed everyone and it was unfair and whine whine whine whine whine about mages---and now they are suppose to be one of the weaker classes?
That came without any changes being made to mages in all reality, cause I don't think those bracelets of antimagic actually do any good.

[Nerutically]

^^ Agree with everything except mages are now one of the weaker classes.. Thats bs. Mages still rule supreme over all the other classes except thieves and zerks.

However, thieves are a great pvp class and a great pvm class because of the topic. Dotw wouldn't be so much of a problem if it wasn't for that like you have said before a thief just trains with a dotw/farms gold and then switches to an ED when wants to pk.

Witch leads us to the point where either the dotw needs changing or the thieves pvp abilites. Because for a class to rule high in both catagories is why there is no real reason for anyone to train anything else.

[Äññöÿäñcë]

the only reason people cried about mages is because when everyone was pre level 20 trying to level up, mike got his ass into gear and went and got beam, then as a result of that could pwn everyone - because he spent all of his time (literally, ALL of it) on trying to get this beam he got a result. people didnt like it.

[Desendent]

lol mike?

I think most were afraid more of freek/puremourning when they hit 31+

[Gaddy]

the only reason people cried about mages is because when everyone was pre level 20 trying to level up, mike got his ass into gear and went and got beam, then as a result of that could pwn everyone

-cough- like thief users now? -ahehm-

But really, that's the current case with thieves. People say they just have it easy, but they're also training a ton because the active players are using thieves.
A level 35 fighter could be a very strong character to have around, and the same goes for a paladin, druid, mage, etc. But those are not the characters that are being trained hard, except Piggy. (I might be missing some others, but you see the point)

[Äññöÿäñcë]

lol mike?

I think most were afraid more of freek/puremourning when they hit 31+

no, that was much later on, im talking about right at the beginning of 1a.

the only reason people cried about mages is because when everyone was pre level 20 trying to level up, mike got his ass into gear and went and got beam, then as a result of that could pwn everyone

-cough- like thief users now? -ahehm-

But really, that's the current case with thieves. People say they just have it easy, but they're also training a ton because the active players are using thieves.
A level 35 fighter could be a very strong character to have around, and the same goes for a paladin, druid, mage, etc. But those are not the characters that are being trained hard, except Piggy. (I might be missing some others, but you see the point)

yes, they may have worked theyr asses off to get to whatever level (the thief users im talking about) but it would've been much more difficult without the dagger of the winds, and without a vampiric weapon. with 1a only being able to log in one character, running a cleric to heal you becomes much more difficult - as someone else has to be on this cleric, you need to co-ordinate etc etc. with a vampiric weapon, this isn't much of a problem, as we can see - TK, GSW, GE all being taken down cleric-less, only on thieves.

if every other class has to earn 10 mil for a vampiric weapon to help them train, is it alright for a thief to get 350k? which granted, is difficult to get on 1a, but compared to 10 mil?

[Gaddy]

Yes, you have a very good point there.

However, the way these thieves are training actually doesn't even come down to DotW in the end. The fact that they can sit covert and 1-click monsters is what makes them so pro-training.

You don't have to have a vampiric weapon if the monsters never hit you, and other classes get nicked over and over---requiring potions at even these weaker monsters that thieves train at most of the time.


I'm not sure if that is how they're still training now that there are groups of level 33+ thieves. I'd be suprised if they are not teaming up and taking down stronger monsters that they can 1-round between two or three of them...but sometimes it is easier just to train alone.


However, other classes can do similar things.
Rangers can hit, hit, hit, hit, hypno.
Mages hit, hit, hit, hit, invis (or even use haste and bump it up)
Druids hit, hit, hit, hit camo
Clerics and Pallys can hit and heal themselves for damage dealt by the weaker monsters

Fighters are in a real pit here, especially because they reach their peak with max armor and top weapons---which are very expensive for such a 'boring' class. But fighters are really good with strong equipment and a self-aware user...


The other classes are still not getting as good of a deal as thieves in this turn-out. And DotW would certainly make thieves have it easier due to vampiric incase they fail, where other classes are in trouble if they fail with their abilities.
They also take more gold to train due to mana use. Potions really aren't going to drain very fast most of the time...or you can use pubs, though it's more better to get far from town, especially from PKers.
But these thieves have worked for their experience. Other classes will have to do the same, and they can.




I do think that maybe the high vamp might need to be lowered a decent bit, along with maybe base damage and level required, to stop this nonsense of clericless bosses, but you will still see that if they get good groups together.
But I'm not sure that I am in a good place to make this change. I will look into it though.

My thieves and druid can kill almost any boss my main party can, including the Time Knight. That is using just healing potions, no DotW. Speedy said pretty much the same elsewhere.

[Äññöÿäñcë]

true, very true

alright, thanks. lowering the vamp slightly might make it easier - but in all fairness, clericless bosses do take the mick a bit really. it defeats the whole object of clerics. everyone may aswell quit training other classes and just train thieves, as they seem to be the most independent. and lets rename nightmist to thiefmist, then let ed/bill play again lolol


but being serious, ty for saying you'll look into it. just glad that the idea has been addressed really.

[Gaddy]

Something I just checked out----

Look at the game times on NM-1alt.
Those explain everything. Your thieves that have hit level 36 and stuff have double the game time of almost all other players. Now, I know they aren't training all the time, but double the game time means they play and train way more than anyone else.

Also notice how Piggy is right up there on the list...


This is the first time I've really thought 1-alt may be balanced...
o.o

[Angelus]

You keep messing with the order of cause and effect.

Thieves are easy to train, hence why a lot of people play thieves, hence why they have a lot of game time.

And the sitting covert and assassinating is over with when DotW comes into play. Thieves train with 2 pots, and filled with food/water. They pick a square, like pyramids. Covert, assassinate (x times needed), covert and so on. Can train the whole day long without even watching the screen, just click your mousebutton every 10 sec and you won't even go below 90% of your hp.

[Gaddy]

I'm not debating the difficulty of their training.
We've said it is easier to train with a vampiric weapon, and I was the one who pointed out that the larger advantage is their ability to covert and wait for spawns without moving.

The point is---they're training harder than other players.
Lethal_Dose and Devotchka have trained WAY more than other players. It isn't like they train faster or the sort, they just put more time and effort into the game.
That is why Piggy is red for 36 as a druid---because he's put in the time and training.


I think you have your order of cause and effect backwards. It isn't that they had training easy so they logged on more. That doesn't explain much; plus they were playing what was originally considered a weak class that no one wanted to use.
They were training thieves before thieves became popular, when they were still considered terrible for 1-alt play.
They train more, thus they get more game time, and they have better characters---which makes people say their training was easier, faster, etc. In all reality, they simply work on their characters more than other players.

It's just easier for people to say it was the weapon than the player because other players haven't been able to keep up with how much they play.


The weapon is still going to be looked into because it yields the advantages that we've all pointed out, but I'd like people to stop trying to claim that thieves have it easy and that is why they're high level. The players worked for it, and it isn't DotW that caused those players to get ahead.

[Angelus]

That they are active more then other players has nothing to do with the class. It's the person behind it, but what does matter is that they all picked a thief as main.

As for the training more, they train more because it's easier to train. Other classes mostly need to have a cleric to train efficiently whereas thieves actually train much faster alone. So they have far more opportunities to train.
And gametime doesn't mean that much, you can't see when they train and when they don't. Look at main game ranked list, Devotchka is 2nd, she barely ever trained tho.

And Piggy is old Memphis, if you wanne compare that, then also compare the time it took Corey to lvl his thief (considerably faster).

What it comes down too is that it's unbalanced as hell, taking away the DotW isn't a good solution tho. But I don't see why you cant make items that are similar for other classes.
So there are other players who didn't have the advantage back then? So what, you can't turn back time, but that's no valid argument to continu further down the wrong path.

[Gaddy]

They do not train faster alone than they would if they were in a party with a cleric.
Or, if you meant they train faster than other classes train alone---I am not so sure about that. I cannot say for sure, but I think a few other classes still deal more damage than thieves, especially on the weaker monsters that thieves train on to click.

I'm not interested in making every other class independant to train. Making alternative weapons for every class IS going further down the wrong path.
Perhaps some small things, but if a druid or the sort wanted, it could use Spider Staff.


And, as I said before, they used thieves before the class was popular or 'easy' to train. The monsters didn't spawn with a thief on the grid originally, and they'd still started training them and had made good progress. They have increased that progress, but they did not pick the class due to the way they train it.
MANY players HAVE begun to pick the class due to the ways you can train them, and that is a sign of a problem, much as the berserker class should have been toned down on main, but it never was.


As I've said, I'll look into adjusting the DotW, but it isn't the real problem with training, which you seem to know as well.
I'm going to mention a spawning flaw/error to the staff team to see what we can come up with to stop sit-and-hit training.

[Lethal_Dose]

lol do what you will with dotw I'll train with ED til I can afford cobalt. Lowering vamp or even takning it out of game effects me little.

[«¤ºxXl3úÐXxº¤»]

I think the classes that are entitled to a vamp weapon are:

Fighters
Zerks

Fighters... they just don't have much going for them.

Zerks, i'm a big zerk fan, but it's hard as hell to find some one to cleric you. For a zerk i'd suggest a vamp weapon, that makes it sufficent to train on your own in a decent area, with out help, but at the same time make it so if you want really sharp exp you gotta be with a cleric, and have on your big boy weapons.

So say...
Library info for xxxxxx:
Base damage: 18, Can be used by: Berserkers, Description: (description here)., Level needed to equip it: 25, Magical: No, Vamparic: ?.??, Armor: 0, Strength modifier: 0, Intelligence modifier: 0, Dexterity modifier: 0, Constitution modifier: 0, Wisdom modifier: 0, Charisma modifier: 0, Poison chance: 0, Poison/30s damage: 0, Monster damage table: , Mana leech:

I'm not staff and i know nothing about balancing, but if you could make the weapon with the correct amount of base damage, and vamp that it's not a huge exp gainer, but sufficient if you can't find a cleric... that would be sex

and further more, people are gonna hate on staff no matter what, but some thing should be done to revive the other classes, because most game users have a thief main, that right there shows a problem. I would like to see some thing done, but i think the right way... the only way is to take the time to make it right, and not rush into some thing for a quick fix, that makes things worse in the long run.

Also, as far as to stop sit and hit, you can move a square and do just the same in spider tunnles ect. you don't have to sit, and it takes on the same effect, but yea

Edited by «¤ºxXl3úÐXxº¤», 08 July 2008 - 03:44 AM.

[speedy]

/nod gaddy cappy is really fun on main with druid thieves btw

[Äññöÿäñcë]

lmao

zerks need a cobalt weapon?




lmao

[Raylen]

lol.

zerks need like

23bd
0.12 vamp

just enough to train with

[Nerutically]

Thieves compared to other classes to train..

Mage - Has to stay pretty close to a pub or has to buy mana every 5 minuets, As gaddy said above they could hit hit invis but thats what 60 mana evey time stam comes back arch mage has 390-420 avg thats 6-7 stam regens and they are already through 1 bar of mp and 1 advanced mana crystal = 1 stam regen. A Mage would go broke from buying mana in order to train like that.. Makes them easy to find and pk

Druid - As for hit hit camo same bit would go broke buying mana.. However a druid can camo run some where and morph and fight monsters but then you have to use pots... Not as easy to find and pk but can be done.

Fighter - Pots always.. Can follow a fighter from the time he leaves town and pk

Zerk - Pots every 3 minutes... Same as fighter to pk

Paladin - Can pretty much do what he pleases only problem with him is his terrible hit rate/dmg and cant do much against undead with 60-65 dmg with aid.. Same as fighter/zerk to pk

Cleric - 100+ Damage to undead things pretty easy to train just mana but you usually make the gold training a cleric to buy it with that problems with clerics are the few amounts of training spots you have IT, rax, and 2nd floor zeum all of witch are easily scanned by pkers... Same as ^^ to pk.

Thief - usually swamps from 1-25 in a matter of no time at all at 25 comes the dotw then they can do two things.. Go sit covert and click small snakes/spiders etc all day... Or grab the dotw stock up on food/water and go to keylike places or places pretty far out of the norm and assassinate however many times it takes covert move on bank all the gold go buy more food and water and repeat... They covert and leave town and then either are still covert killing things or in distant places making them hard to find and pk.


Yes Lethal_Dose/Devotchka have insane game times and yes they do deserve there level but you can't use them as you have above.. They have had those crits sense 1a opend more then a year ago... However other people have sold out of there classes to pick up a thief do to the fact that they bank almost 100% of the gold they make, they are not hard to train as they can do it secretly or out of the norm (more a pk issue here), and ofcourse in the end they are a good pkers/boss killers that you can do without a cleric..

As for Piggy/Achilles/God_Of_Death.. And all the other high exp crits that are not a thief... All these were also trained from almost the begging of 1a and these have the same game times and levels (almost) But now there are lvl 33-34 thieves with 1/2 of those crits game times and 1-2 levels below them? Game time doesnt prove much as Angelus said I can have a level 30 and never train it again and have 128 days game time doesnt mean that its hard to train that character just means when im on i just sit and talk or pk witch is half of Devotchka's/Lethal's game time..

Yes hitting monsters and not coming out is an issue but for thieves to click those without failing and showing themselves/take damage they are usually low pod monsters so that justifys its self not .. As for dotw they can take those to 70-80 pod monsters and just sit and fight until its dead without going under 80% of health. And when they do fail on those low pod monsters and "take a nick" the dotw gives it right back.


Those were the last words from me on this topic as you've said you will look into changing the spawn/dotw issues.