50 replies to this topic

[PureMourning]

I've been recently studying this ever lasting subject. I'm simply curious to see what this particular community feels is right, or any other opinions/thoughts.

(Mind you, I'm not exactly for either of them).

Edited by PureMourning, 04 November 2004 - 08:48 PM.

[Darklin]

Is this a subject on wich came first? Like the chikin or the egg kinda topic?

[PureMourning]

Not exactly. The whole subject is really about how humans came to be. It's not about how all matter came to exist in the begining, or life even.

[Squee]

Evolution does exist. We can see it every year when the Flu virus "evolves" itself into a whole new strand of disease.

However, recently, my whole Darwinist nature kind of got shook up. Taking my Grade 11 biology and taking a look at living things on an atomic scale really makes you think about how perfect and efficient cells are. Not to mention the whole construction of DNA. When you take a look at it, it's really hard to picture that it was all "accidental". (I could give you examples but it'd get quite long-winded.)

That's not to say that I believe it was all created in 7 days, though. It just means that I'm leaving myself fairly open minded to both theories (and any other theories that may arise).

[PureMourning]

Nice post Squee, and your 'open mind-set' is admirable.

Doesn't the bilble say (passages of Genesis, I believe) that God created the earth in 6 days*, 10,000 years ago. But, don't we have valid evidence that dinosaurs exsisted billions of years ago?

[Squee]

The Bible itself is metaphoric in nature. Though many people would disagree with me, to read the Bible literally is wrong. That being said, I don't think the point of Genesis was to give a water-tight explanation of how everything came to be.

Genesis can teach us about how we are all naturally curious, naturally jealous and suffer from natural humility and fear.

The Great Flood teaches that it is important to stick by your beliefs. Noah was ridiculed for building an ship by all the other people. However, because he followed what he truly believed was true, he (along with his family) found salvation.

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture of what I'm trying to say.

Edit: The expression is "water-tight", not "water-proof". ^^;

Edited by Squee, 04 November 2004 - 09:29 PM.

[Ryuku]

I really have no opinion at the moment, I put "Truth-Seeker."

[Darklin]

Wot does "truth-seeker" mean really? Like those who think we are all in the matrix or those who have that x-files kind of thinkin?

[PureMourning]

I believe that "Truth-Seeker" in this case means that you're undecided with what side you lean torwards, and kinda what Squee said previously, you explore the different possibilities, variety of theories, ect...

There may actually be an actual concrete meaning in-general to the phrase, but in this case I think that's suitable.

(I'm rushing atm, I have to be to work soon, so I'll comment on Squee's post later on).

[Dan]

You can't have evolution without creation. I for one can't see a ball rolling without being given a little push

Also the bible(s) are updated regularly, and brought out by different publishers. Something can say that such and such happened 5000 years ago, but keep in mind no-one knows when the scrolls were actually written. You can pretty much bet that out calendar now was not the same as it was then.

[Exilus]

Considering that im pagen i refrain from answering anything i feel may cause a war here, out of respect for morning and the people who have posted so far.

[jurian]

evolution there is no big thingy that made us all cuz he certainly mooseed up then. we are just a offspring of the right combinations (temperature/atmosphere stuff like that)

i just got by darwin really

[Wafer]

Everything was 'created' out of the evolutionary process.

Darwin was certainly on the right track, only we now know it wasn't quite as linear as he believed, in that some elvoutionary strands developed side by side, some dying out, others reversing then going in a different direction etc etc.

The human species for example, Darwin believed evolved directly from our simian ancesters, and that we would eventually discover the 'missing link' that would plot the linear evolutionary process from them to us.

But now we understand that although we share a common ancestory, we evolved on a seperate track from our monkey cousins.

[Dc]

http://www.nightmist...=on the 6th day

[two]

even though evolution has been proven to exist (quite substantially), the idea of how life began is just as falsifiable as the creation theory. we can trace evolution back to a certain point with a great deal of comfort, but there's absolutely no evidence to support that we were puddles of goo that got lucky. i forgot the name of the dude, but the guy who came up with the theory of goo-evolution also came up with a couple of weird theories like how we have polar energies built inside us, and we'll evolve into beings of light.

why not combine the two ideas, say that we're all sea monkeys evolved. my my how our sand castle kingdoms have grown!

[Zeppelin]

I believe in creationism....I don't believe in evolution

[PureMourning]

/t Squee

I'm not entirely sure what you were aiming for in your second post. I understand your view on how the bible should be comprehended. But, it seems as if you went a little bit too much in-debth (and yes I know you could have taken it much further) in relevance to the topic at hand, thus causing confusion to me on what you meant.

With that said, here's something I wish to add in (that favors evolution).

The bible is just a book, right? -- Well I can easily point you into the direction of a book that tells you God doesn't exist. So a book, oooohhhhh, convincing. And if you favor Creationism, where did God come from?

/t Dan

To me, your first few lines weren't too sensible (no offense, just telling you how see it, and take it).

The issue at hand, evolution vs. creationism, are both about how we came to be. Both sides are thought about how we were created. Evo being one of many theories (The "Big Bang" among others), and creationsim being God (of infinite power) created everything. So, I don't see exactly see the 'can't have evolution without creation(ism*)'.

* I'm not saying what you said was wrong, maybe I just didn't completely understand, sorry if so. *

/t Exilus

I'm near loss when it comes to the whole 'pagen' deal. So I'd imagine if you posted thoughts in a respectful way, it'd be fine. I'd like to hear. Of coarse, up to you though.


----- Nice comments!

[Exilus]

ok im gonna try this respectful but this topic always seems to start wars when I talk but I will try.


Ok pagen beleif, like christian belief is split in denominations the difference being our gods are different so our beleifs on the subject of our creation verys per god pantheon, so I will only speak for mine. I know of at least two druidic followers in the game so they may tell you thiers I don't know, Since we generally keep a code of silence that goes back to the Enquisishion(sp) and Witch burnings, and druidics tend to follow that code a little deeper than my Denomination and I'm more outspoken that most of them. So here we go.

There are many orders with in pagenism and many have their own dating and setting, Untill recently most were not wrighten down, but were passed from mother and father to child, As was mine I learned from my mother, father and grandmother, who learned from theirs, and this is the belief i was taught and raised with.

We were created by gods and so was our world, but it was not that alone, the world it's self is was a slow evolving process that took more time than even men can truly account for, how the god and goddess came to be no one knows and we do not even define to make stories to explain it nor do we ask. The magically bueaty of a sun rise is enough to tell us that they are there.

We belive in a god and a goddess because we were made in an attempt to create beings that were similar to them, children for lack of another name, they attempted many forms, but nothing was to their liking untill creating what you and I are. When they had created this perfect form they called man they gave him strength, they gave him pride, they gave him love. They taught him the power to use his own soul and the magic of the simple rising of the sun, but there was something missing and niether the god and goddess could see what it was, it was man himself who answered the question when asked why he was so sad, "I am alone." his words then told god and goddess what the next thing they would have to create would be, so they began to work and created women.

They gave her bueaty, but the goddess thinking that alone would be boring and Men being men would grow bored fast she took this creation and added a few things of her own, a soul that could be innocent but devilish, a smile of magic that could melt a heart or stop it depending on the devilishness in her mind, and she saw this creature as her daughter she wanted to give her the strongest magic of all, but she wished it to be similar to hers in which she had to be at the side of her god to create, so she gave her the ability to create life, but that life required the man.


Ok i know i went farther than i had ment to but you said you were clueless to pagen. I don't believe the christian version because of the fact that it claims a god, the male form and in many portrays woman form of our race as being the reason we are not in paradise. But at the same time they omit if women are bad in the eyes of their god, why are they blessed with the bueaty to bring life into our world. Then i have heard that the pain of child birth was to be apunishment but i have delivered babys on an ambulance including one of my own, and everyone women i have talked to unless their man was bad in bed both the making was no where near punishment and the pain of the birth was worth it. I also don't agree that women are lesser than men, and that seems to be the typical conclusion as a women is ment to be at home in front of the stove, and thats not hard work... Yeaaaaa right!!!!! In my beleif as in the story men and women are equal with out one the other can not survive.

Gays and lesbians are covered in my religion, and they are ment to be equal to us, they are the way they are for a reason what that reason is only the gods and goddesses know. but they are.

Ok i said my big long thing and im sorry it got as long as it did i hope you understand.

So in a way my religion would be a little of both.

[Someone]

I'm studying genetics and biological anthropology right now so based on what I've learned about mutations, adaptations, acclimitization and so on I can't hardly deny that evolution exists without lying to myself and denying everything I've seen and studied - it's not entirely as Darwin and Wallace saw it - but it still is there.

[Xiox]

Have you ever noticed how look-like monkeys and humans are? If you haven't I'm sorry but that's stupid. And saying "I don't believe in evolution! Do I look like a monkey?" is even more stupid . No offense to any of you creationists.

Edited by Xiox, 06 November 2004 - 07:18 AM.

[Da_J_Mooney]

I don't believe in either.... because when researchers said that we were evolved from monkey's, monkey's didn't exist. Creationism is bull too, there is no proof that a "God" 'created us and put us here.' You need to have truth to prove things.... without proof, you have nothing.

[Lady_Maha]

Researchers don't say we evolved from monkeys. We're just basically cousins, same way dogs are related to bears, only we are obviously closer to monkeys than dogs to bears.

[jurian]

Darwin pwns all! no need to discuss really

edit: spelled darwing ^^

Edited by jurian, 06 November 2004 - 08:31 AM.

[Crane]

The Bible says the earth was created in six days by God, but in Hebrew, a day means a period of time, not necessarily 24 hours. I believe in evolution, as you see it with the cold and influenza viri (viruses), but the near perfection of the structure of DNA and some of the mathematical patterns you see in plants (Fibonacci Numbers and such) does make you wonder if there is a greater power at work - like what Squee said earlier.

[Spill]

I belive that god put man on earth (creationism) but yet let us evolve into what we are today.

[Squee]

Just to put the record straight, we share 97% of our genome with monkeys*. It's the 3% that makes us unique.

As said by myself and Crane, evolution can be seen every year when the influenza virus mutates (or evolves) into something entirely different, capable of bypassing our immunities.

Just taking a look at my biology notes (Grade 11 U biology, mind you; nothing entirely special), I can plainly see some of those facts that seem so perfect and flawless that it makes you really wonder if they were an accident.

The molecular structure of DNA is incredibly simple relative to its function. Not only is it simple but it is very efficient. The helical formation (if you're like me, you need a picture so just imagine a single coiled spring) actually comes with "scape-goat" genetic code (introns). This code is purposely exposed to all the mutations and harmful effects of the environment in order to protect the useful genetic code (exons).

DNA is responsible for the "directions" on making protien strands. In order to do this, a piece of DNA has to be copied (transcribed) into RNA which is fed through the nuclear membrane into the cytoplasm (RNA is now referred to messenger RNA or mRNA) of the cell. A ribosome attaches to the RNA and reads (translates) the codecs (groups of three Nitrogenous bases [The four of which are abbreviated to A, T, C, and G]). The translated codecs attract tRNA (transfer RNA) to them. At one end of the tRNA are the opposite Nitrogenous bases that are attracted to the original RNA and at the other end are amino acids (the "building blocks" of protein - this amino acid is specific only to a certain type of tRNA). The ribosome then moves over to the next codec and translates that. Another tRNA is attracted and another amino acid is set into place. A peptide bond is formed between the two amino acids and the first tRNA detaches and begins to search out another amino acid in the cytoplasm to attach to itself. This process continues over and over again, create a polypeptide. This polypeptide becomes relatively long and begins to fold along itself. Eventually, the polypetitde (of at least 50 amino acids) folds enough to be considered a protein. Now it can perform whatever function the cell needs it to.

All that to create a single protein strand! I mean... it like boggles the mind! Everything is so perfect in protein synthesis and it's just like... AH!

It's difficult to imagine that this was all accident. And if it was, could you imagine all the amounts of trial and error it would take to perfect that?

I could go on and on about this subject but I think that's enough for now. Not to say that God mysteriously does this all for us but... the whole process just astounds me and leaves me speechless and I find it so difficult to believe that it all happened by accident.

Edit: *Gribbin, John. In search of the Double Helix. New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1985.

Edited by Squee, 06 November 2004 - 05:17 PM.

[Dc]

lets pretend i have the time to put somthing really deep, long, and scientific in here about why creationism is truth

but since i dont have the time, i guess you can just read what i posted before......

[Tiomat]

I believe in evolution, (and the multiverse theory) but have nothing against people who believe in religion of any form. When people come up with arguments like: but DNA is so precise, the answer I believe is the same as with physics arguments such as why is gravity as strong as it is. If DNA was different, then we would not exist just like if there were 6 dimensions instead of 3/4/10/11 (depends how deep into theoretical physics you want to go) then we would not exist. The multiverse physics theory solves this by saying every possible universe exists, so I think that argument would hold just as well for DNA being so precise. If everything hadn't turned out exactly as it has done we wouldn't be here to question it.

Also, there have been computer programs created that 'mimic' life in the simplest of forms and have been found just using simple rules, like if this pixel is surrounded by more than 2 pixels it will suffocate and die, that complex patterns can emerge and can start to actually simulate life in its entirity (movement - yes, reproduction - yes, sensitity - bit hard for a computer program, growth - yes, respiration - no need can get energy elsewhere, excretion - bit hard, nutrition - not needed).

Going on what was said before about how you need to 'prove' something, that is not at all accurate. There is practically nothing we can prove indefinitly, as they all hinge on other accepted 'truth's' before. It's just these theories are tested continuously and continue to give results that happen to be what are predicted. A proof can only be considered a proof if mathematics has made it being false irrational, and there isn't anything mathematical you can use to prove/disprove God to my knowledge.

(Just incase I get some nice arguments like, how can you believe in infinite numbers of universes, how can God have generated a number like Pi, which has no pattern only an infinite formula to calculate it)

Edited by Tiomat, 08 January 2005 - 11:20 PM.

[archmaster]

Creationism is so conservative and stupid! Only a complete moron would possibly believe that crap, im a christian, but the bible is symbolic, like crane said, a day in hebrew means a period of time...
thats why im a liberal! i dont want some red-neck lutherans tellin me whats right!

[Penguin]

Moron.