32 replies to this topic

[alo113]

Should Locksmith be added to the 1Alt server?

[ice_cold]

Seems like it would be a nice boost for thieves. +1

[alo113]

i vote null.

 

as a whole it would be an ok addition. mostly if not only for 7 stam dwarves and or 8 stam thieves.  It isn't going to help 75% of the playerbase at all.  as far as thieves on 1a generally suck, and in comparison are WORSE than a dotw thief on main.  I just don't see it having any influence on any account that isn't shared by several people, or an extremely high level tossing alot of pots.

 

 

p.s. level a pally and go to castle the map is on wiki 

Classes other than thieves can fight the boss too, if I'm not mistaken.  They just need to be equipped with a weapon with "Dagger" or "Skewer" in the weapon name.  I'm confident two lvl 32+ thieves and a cleric would be more than glad to sit and kill it just for a chance at difficult keys to get without larger parties or just simply rare keys.

[ice_cold]

There's some benefits to Locksmith like Topaz Key being only dropped through it, it can shorten certain trips like Drow Blade Mage by randomly dropping Abstinok Key, or allowing people to stock up on certain keys which are less desireable to get like the Curio Key or Exodus Key which are needed to get leveling items but are nearly impossible to do alone.

 

Outside of that, it's nice to have different things for different classes. You like to complain that there's nothing in game a thief can do that another class can't do and they're all nerfed and such, however this would be a decent addition just for them. Yeah, I understand everyone can equip a Dagger, but seriously, who wants to throw a 1 bd weapon onto their character and go to town. On top of that most everyone has a higher level thief that could get into the action with. There's no reason to compare 1-alt characters to multi-alt characters as the games really aren't comparable. 

[Peacemaker]

I honestly think that it would only benefit few. The few that have the extra crits to try and camp it and get as many keys as possible. People on one alt look for anyway to exploit stuff. Why would this be different?

[Migraine]

Duh to help long boss trips like time off castle runs or kunal runs etc all around helps bossing in general

[IXThunderDomeXI]

I support the idea.

 

Out of all the multi alt only bosses, I think Locksmith would be the best addition. Although I would like to see the likes of Elder Treant and Koschei the Deathless, they wouldn't be balanced enough for 1 alt. Really the only downside to adding Locksmith to 1 alt is it would probably not be killed too often after the first few weeks. Once everyone figures out it generally doesn't drop high end keys I highly doubt they'll continue to camp it. I don't see an issue with the small chance of droppings keys like the Chapel and Topaz key, the drop rate is plenty low enough as to where it shouldn't be a problem at all.

[Gnarkill]

Kind of off-topic but since theres thief talk going on can I get a little info off of you guys since this is an active thread?

 

Are thieves really that bad on 1a now? I was actually thinking of rolling/leveling one just to make a little gold clicking easy things to eventually afford a higher level crit on 1a since I don't see myself training anything 1-30 on there let alone to 35 or so.. but I wouldn't mind having a larger alt there just to use as a main and play once and a while. Maybe thief isn't the way to go?

[Gnarkill]

alright thanks for the info might have to take you up on that so I can get rollin a bit quicker over there

[ice_cold]

Kind of off-topic but since theres thief talk going on can I get a little info off of you guys since this is an active thread?

 

Are thieves really that bad on 1a now? I was actually thinking of rolling/leveling one just to make a little gold clicking easy things to eventually afford a higher level crit on 1a since I don't see myself training anything 1-30 on there let alone to 35 or so.. but I wouldn't mind having a larger alt there just to use as a main and play once and a while. Maybe thief isn't the way to go?

 

Multi Thief, Level 30, Dagger of Spirits, Full 5 Stam, Uncovert

 

total - per stam

296 - 59.2 

249 - 49.8

272 - 54.4

282 - 56.4

267 - 53.4

239 - 47.8

 

1-alt thief, Level 33, Dagger of Spirits, Full 6 Stam, Uncovert

 

326 - 54.3

350 - 58.3

279 - 46.5

319 - 53.2

280 - 46.7

237 - 54.5

393 - 65.5

 

Those are a few rounds on a multi thief and a 1-alt thief for reference. As you can probably tell the 1-alt thief is a bit more swingy. Even though the 1-alt thief is 3 levels higher, they generally still do the same amount of damage with the same weapon per stamina round. People tend to greatly over-exaggerate how bad thieves are. It is true though, if your use to throwing a dagger of the winds on your thief an destroying the game, that weapon has been fixed to better fit it's price. I think people on 1-alt have also gotten used to the crazy damage and life gain some other classes can do like berserkers that rarely miss and hit for 1000 damage a round when spelled or clerics that heal for 140 per stamina, or any class with a wooden stake hitting for 150+ per stamina.

[Cadabra]

^^ Your 1-alt thief has 1 more stam tjan the main thief.

[ice_cold]

^^ Your 1-alt thief has 1 more stam tjan the main thief.

 

I understand that. Left number is total damage done per assassinate uncoverted. 2nd number is average damage per stamina which is 5 for multi and 6 for 1-alt. When averaged per stamina, the thieves are still doing about the same damage.

[Gnarkill]

 

Kind of off-topic but since theres thief talk going on can I get a little info off of you guys since this is an active thread?

 

Are thieves really that bad on 1a now? I was actually thinking of rolling/leveling one just to make a little gold clicking easy things to eventually afford a higher level crit on 1a since I don't see myself training anything 1-30 on there let alone to 35 or so.. but I wouldn't mind having a larger alt there just to use as a main and play once and a while. Maybe thief isn't the way to go?

 

Multi Thief, Level 30, Dagger of Spirits, Full 5 Stam, Uncovert

 

total - per stam

296 - 59.2 

249 - 49.8

272 - 54.4

282 - 56.4

267 - 53.4

239 - 47.8

 

1-alt thief, Level 33, Dagger of Spirits, Full 6 Stam, Uncovert

 

326 - 54.3

350 - 58.3

279 - 46.5

319 - 53.2

280 - 46.7

237 - 54.5

393 - 65.5

 

Those are a few rounds on a multi thief and a 1-alt thief for reference. As you can probably tell the 1-alt thief is a bit more swingy. Even though the 1-alt thief is 3 levels higher, they generally still do the same amount of damage with the same weapon per stamina round. People tend to greatly over-exaggerate how bad thieves are. It is true though, if your use to throwing a dagger of the winds on your thief an destroying the game, that weapon has been fixed to better fit it's price. I think people on 1-alt have also gotten used to the crazy damage and life gain some other classes can do like berserkers that rarely miss and hit for 1000 damage a round when spelled or clerics that heal for 140 per stamina, or any class with a wooden stake hitting for 150+ per stamina.

 

 

I was basically thinking of using one just to click minor things for a little bit of gold when I can be on and if it levels thats all good but no biggie if it doesn't as I probably wouldn't have time to farm all of the leveling materials anyways.. just something to stack some coin with to buy a better crit/eq later on bascially.. from what you guys are saying it sounds like it would work fine for that!

 

As long as a dotw can still give a little hp back to spread out my potion use and can click some of the smaller mobs around I'd be fine.. I'm not thinking of going anywhere like Dessy or Tirantek where mobs hit harder.

Edited by Gnarkill, 08 August 2014 - 05:03 PM.

[ice_cold]

I averaged the damage per assassinate based on damage done and stamina. To go even further and average every assassinate based on damage the average is 52 damage per stamina on the 1-alt thief and and 53.5 damage per stam on the multi thief which isn't a very big difference. In algebra you have mean, mode, and median which you decided to use none of those even though you so pompously stated I didn't have an understanding of algebra. What you did was make a range out of 2 numbers (that's normally what a range is high and low) and rather then find the range, you averaged them... This brick wall would like to know if you finished 7th grade and have an understanding as to the differences of mean, median, mode, and range and how to properly use them.

[Cruxis]

And..we are looking for the average, not the range?

 

What would we want the range for when it can be easily change with another set of damage from the same character?

 

You know your math terms, you should also know your application of it.

[ice_cold]

And..we are looking for the average, not the range?

 

What would we want the range for when it can be easily change with another set of damage from the same character?

 

You know your math terms, you should also know your application of it.

 

That's my point, we're looking for an average, which is what I did and not what Piddy did. Piddy created a range and then averaged between the ranges which is okay if you only ever hit for those 2 amounts, however when you just make a range and say a thief will average this damage you'll get incorrect numbers. In comparison I actually took multiple stamina rounds and averaged them. There is a big difference in what we did. my 35 human thief with 19 str vs Piddys 34 Dwarf with 21 str and +2 bd weapon did not equal the same mean. His range average was 306 and my mean was 312

[Crescendoll]

Danny's formula to average hits makes most sense to me. I don't own a thief but any addition to the game that helps gain access to harder-to-reach areas while making thieves more valuable sounds like a win-win to me.

Edited by Crescendoll, 10 August 2014 - 02:47 AM.

[ice_cold]

8 stam is an equalizer although almost noone will waste the time on a thief when you could easily do 2 other classes to 40 in the same ammount of time.  

 

There are 3 level 40 thieves, 2 Berserkers, 1 Ranger, 1 Druid, 1 Fighter. The numbers speak for themselves currently. Thieves make up 37.5% of the current level 40's.

 

Back on topic here, I'll +1 "any addition to the game that helps gain access to harder-to-reach areas while making thieves more valuable sounds like a win-win to me."

[alo113]

Back on topic here, I'll +1 "any addition to the game that helps gain access to harder-to-reach areas while making thieves more valuable sounds like a win-win to me."

This. +1

And just to make it clear for those of you who don't play main, or unsure of how often Locksmith drops rare keys, I believe the chances of getting a Chapel Key are .1% for example. That is one in one thousand kills.

Just like any boss, luck is very much involved, however these keys won't be able to be mass-farmed as easily as some people may believe. Think of Shadow Wraith in terms of dropping shadow essences and wraith essences. Not nearly as common as shadow souls, which helps to sustain value for these items in the market.

There are more ways to add value to a class than buffing or un-nerfing Thieves, contrary to popular belief, are very prevalent in the game. As Danny mentioned in a post above, almost everyone has one, if not multiple, and would be willing to lend one to someone to use.

As another valid point, people complain that there aren't enough "important" or "relevant" bosses that require small parties as opposed to parties of 10+ and require hours of farming items. Implementation of the Locksmith on 1alt doesn't have to mirror it's Main server counterpart, as it could be located somewhere totally different. Point being, it is a boss that can be very beneficial to the server, requires minimal party members, and has a fairly quick respawn time in comparison with other bosses.

[ice_cold]

/t danny I don't understand mathematics very well.  So could you please find the average of 180 , 181 , 182 , 183 , 184 , 185 , 186 , 187 , 188 , 189 ,.... , 400. and the avg of 300 , 301 , 302 , 303 , 304 , ......., 400.    and post your results?  

 

That's flawed thinking as with multipliars you won't be able to hit certain numbers. Also factored into how attacks, abilities, and spells work different numbers are weighted differently. In example in Bone Garden, with CE up, on Finale I heal for 163, 165, 166, 168, and 169 however cannot heal for 164 or 167 ever at my current level and equipment. Same thing with certain Charisma on a cleric and healing. When you have 18 charisma you heal for your bottom number more often then your high number, at 19 charisma you start healing almost equally, at 20 charisma you rarely heal for your bottom number (or maybe never its been awhile) and heal for your high end number far more often. It's the same thing with assassinate where different factors weigh more heavily then others which makes you assassinate for different amounts. If you go and assassinate 200 times and tally the numbers, you'll notice that assassinate gravitates around certain numbers due to the coding.

[alo113]

If any staff members or advisors could happen to read this post, is there any particular reason the Locksmith was never added to 1alt?

I understand both servers deserve shared bosses and respective bosses. I also understand each server has different variables that factor in, and that's why there are different items and craftables that don't carry over.

Just out of general curiosity why was Locksmith one of the bosses left off of the mutual-server boss list? Any response would be greatly appreciated.

[Gaddy]

If any staff members or advisors could happen to read this post, is there any particular reason the Locksmith was never added to 1alt?
I understand both servers deserve shared bosses and respective bosses. I also understand each server has different variables that factor in, and that's why there are different items and craftables that don't carry over.
Just out of general curiosity why was Locksmith one of the bosses left off of the mutual-server boss list? Any response would be greatly appreciated.

Trevayne developed the Locksmith, Wolf Lord, Elder Treant, and Drider Warlord specifically for Main. He didn't wish for the content to be duplicated since balancing 1-Alt was not possible.
When you get down to it, most of us were frustrated because 1-Alt was plopped into existence with no checks or adjustments. There were flaws and balance issues quickly identified. On top of that, 1-Alt staff were cheating for their friends. However, there was no willingness to reset for balance or rework. So most of the development group spurned the 1-Alt server.

There is a lot of content now developed for 1-Alt that is not transferred to Main, mind you. So it makes sense that the opposite is true.


Also, there is not a simple copy/paste option for staff to transfer squares, items, or monsters - much less full areas. So that is another reason content is frequently not mirrored.

[Melchior]

Sounds like you need some multi server builders/balance team to iron things out....I only played main back in the day like waaaay back prob shortly after this game was launched I have bounced in over the years and played sporadically now I have been back since May and I can tell 1 alt needs a lot of work all around with everything from balance to new implementations. I like to see games flourish and piddy has a heat for the noobs who have been trying hard to move up in this game I have brought 8-10 players to this game and maybe 4 have stayed a lot left cause of being bullied/pked/tired of grinding for anything at all.

[Gnarkill]

Sounds like you need some multi server builders/balance team to iron things out....I only played main back in the day like waaaay back prob shortly after this game was launched I have bounced in over the years and played sporadically now I have been back since May and I can tell 1 alt needs a lot of work all around with everything from balance to new implementations. I like to see games flourish and piddy has a heat for the noobs who have been trying hard to move up in this game I have brought 8-10 players to this game and maybe 4 have stayed a lot left cause of being bullied/pked/tired of grinding for anything at all.

 

Welcome(back) to NM... alot of our own veteran players have left or cut their comebacks short for the same reasons along with a boatload of "new players". 1a seems to be a 1 clan ship and if you're not in Pande you're gonna have a rougher time.. which sucks because not everyone is gonna get along and the server itself would be alot more fun with some healthy competition rather than almost everyone having a safety net by being in one guild and choosing who they want to harass and try to chase off the server.. I find it to be a very high school clique-ish atmosphere over there and in the numerous times I've given the server a shot I always end up back on multi doing my own thing shortly after.

 

JLH doesn't spend an overwhelming amount of time on NM and its coding and he's the only one that has authority/ability to do it. we've pretty much sat in the same predicament for years where the active staff does whatever they can to spruce things up without the ability to mess with the coding and for what they're given they do a very good job.

 

Multi is fine other than lacking players imo even though theres quite a few of us that still lurk in the shadows and play there. The multi players occupy themselves and rarely complain about much unless something is bugged.. most of the complaining comes from 1a people griping that our stuff on multi hasn't been nerfed to match thiers or something.. its a different game/play style basically and one shouldn't really be used as a measuring stick for the other. There have been a few challenging areas added to it that aren't on 1a and vice versa.. people just want the best of both worlds without having to play both servers. I personally don't enjoy 1a as much as multi and hope atleast a few multi players come back when summer is over! it seems to usually pick up a bit on multi in winter.

Edited by Gnarkill, 14 August 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[Gnarkill]

The common gripes I've heard on multi from people trying to get started involve the rolling system taking too long and not being able to have a bunch of 4 stats or better right off the bat. Most people assume multi has to be 20 alt parties to compete but as you guys that played it in the past know someone who uses 5-10 crits can get most things done pretty effectively that a noob would be trying to accomplish when just getting into the game.

 

Sure, sometimes bosses aren't in but right now its 100x more likely that they will be in vs. back when a ton of people played multi.. I normally find bosses in more often than not if I look unless someone is camping a specific area and even if they are they're usually friendly enough to let you help kill or sell you the drop you're looking for at a very decent price. Most of the things that get camped extremely hard are high end or new additions that a noob couldn't even attempt until they have played for a while, learned how to use a party effectively and leveled up a bit.

 

The market is collapsed but thats nothing new.. that happened when everyone left to 1a/when the server went nopk. All of the crits/items/gold stayed in game and the player #s decreased by a ton. I don't see how its a bad thing for someone just starting out.. if they're training crits they will be making the money to spend and items have been cheaper than ever so they would be able to work towards having a solid party alot easier than in the past.

 

Crits are also pretty inexpensive now compared to what they used to be.. so much so that alot of them won't sell unless they're 5/6 stats or you're willing to sell them dirt cheap.

 

Not to mention that a noob getting pk'd on multi doesn't lose any of the gold or items they have earned as long as they bring a covert level 4 thief.. only thing lost is a little exp.

 

Edit: yeah I agree the 1a leveling system would be alot easier on multi but being the lazy bum I am I think both should use the current leveling system multi uses 

Edited by Gnarkill, 15 August 2014 - 12:10 AM.

[Melchior]

We have a dream..... Lol

[ice_cold]

Locksmith was designed for multi-alt specifically, and was added during a period in which a decent amount of new bosses were added to that server. Some years ago when 1-alt was made, staff were upset that they weren't included in the decision for 1-alt to be opened when it was, and the fact that game was 'too far broken to be fixed for 1 character per person'. That being said there were a decent amount of staff members who outright refused to do additions to the 1-alt server. As such there are certain additions to multi that would have fit into 1-alt but was never looked at or even considered by the staff who designed them. 

[Melchior]

Piddy has gave the best reason of why it shouldn't be added and it makes a lot of sense to not add it no matter what the % rate key drops are it will most likely be farmed by a few people that have a strangle hold on it. The way I played realms of kaos and did oads(bosses) was that there was usually a group of people who dominated them and after they had enough of whatever item they farming after they would stop we would swoop in and take it over. Most of nm is geared around endgame and nothing but grinding in the middle. Would be nice to see some change in it.

[ice_cold]

The multi-system of using boss drops for leveling characters would be horrible as you would need a party (which not everyone can get) to level. Essentially, people who aren't Pande would be at the wim of pande members to sell them leveling items at inflated prices. With the current system, even though you have to grind a certain mob to get leveled, youre still able to do it alone in general, or with a much smaller party then say, going and killing giant chameleon. Even then, who's to say people would go and kill giant chameleon when all their mages are leveled and x person outside of the clan (or even in the clan) needs the item. People complained about the coliseum bosses for the exact reason people want to have the multi-alt system....its the same system, killing bosses for leveling items. Killing bosses for leveling items wasn't popular for 1-alt and an alternate system was added due to players complaints.

[Melchior]

And this us why piddy any all time fav nm player lol
And this us why piddy is my all time fav nm player lol
And this is why piddy is my all time fav nm player lol