23 replies to this topic

[Scruggs]

First i would like to talk about checkers and using pacifists or other characters to farm keys. I feel like they defeat the purpose of the game. It is my opinion that you should have to travel to the boss to see if it is in. It is my feeling that having checkers wouldn't be much different than being able to type "/bosses" and have the game show you whats in. I have a couple suggestions as to how to fix this. You could put a couple strong kill to pass monsters in front of the boss. Also to deal with pacifists, there are a lot of areas they don't need to be. They could just be barred from the area. I would like to see a little more effort go into killing bosses. I know Tirantek has been rid of pacifists. I'd like to measures to prevent this behavior go world wide.

As far as toggle who goes, i'm not sure why it was implemented. Maybe there is a good reason for it. However I would also like to see it removed. This i don't have a solid reason for. It's just my feeling that it's not a warranted feature, and i'd like to see everyone that is on. Or no information at all about who is on.

[Freek]

First i would like to talk about checkers and using pacifists or other characters to farm keys. I feel like they defeat the purpose of the game. It is my opinion that you should have to travel to the boss to see if it is in. It is my feeling that having checkers wouldn't be much different than being able to type "/bosses" and have the game show you whats in. I have a couple suggestions as to how to fix this. You could put a couple strong kill to pass monsters in front of the boss. Also to deal with pacifists, there are a lot of areas they don't need to be. They could just be barred from the area. I would like to see a little more effort go into killing bosses. I know Tirantek has been rid of pacifists. I'd like to measures to prevent this behavior go world wide.

As far as toggle who goes, i'm not sure why it was implemented. Maybe there is a good reason for it. However I would also like to see it removed. This i don't have a solid reason for. It's just my feeling that it's not a warranted feature, and i'd like to see everyone that is on. Or no information at all about who is on.

+1

[Gaddy]

It's been suggested before that all places outside of town be log to local. I don't think there is very solid arguement against that, except that it would make the game less easy.

However, you would have to practically eliminate the pacifist class to make that effective. Otherwise it is still an option to just run past everything on them---in most areas.
I have an entire account of boss checking characters. Would make my 7 pacifists pretty pointless...

[PrimeX85]

#1
The /toggle who has been suggested multiple times, probs about 20 or so, about gettin rid of it and stuff, and usually always gets shot down cause a staff member or 2 is against it meanwhile the rest of the game is all for it...-----so good luck on that one lol

#2
The whole checkers thing, well u can consider that gettin shot down aswell... since thats how everyone in the game goes about playing it, they log on and 1st thing they do is log thier checkers on and check bosses... i think alll boss areas should be l2l and have ktps all around it so ppl cant log off a checker anywhere near it, but everyone that plays main is gonna disagree and say its pointless to play yadda yadda if they couldnt use crits/pacis for checkers anymore cause everyone on the game is lazy and not 1 of them willl want to have to kill everything and travel all over the map just to see if a boss is in, like everyone did back in the day on nightmist... the new strategy of nightmist is pure greed, whats the quickest and easiest way to get rich, and thats bossing....----- so again good luck wit this one too cause everyones gonna be totally against this suggestion cause like i said, none of them will wanna have to work to check if a boss is in, remember "whats the quickest and easiest way?"

just my thoughts, think i pretty much summed up all the answers ur gonna get Cody haha

Edited by PrimeX85, 27 June 2012 - 03:25 AM.

[Scruggs]

I don't think all areas of the game should be log to local. I think i have provided a solution to running past everything below. As well as given a better explanation of what areas should be log to local.

- At the entrance square(s) of areas that pacifists don't belong in make that first square a no pacifist square. That seems simple enough.
*All areas should have this unless they meet the criteria of the exceptions below.
~Areas that have heal to kill monsters
~Areas that pacifists need to pass through to get to heal to kill monsters
~Towns that pacifists have to be able to get to.
`Note: Monsters and bosses such as Banshee that are heal to kill should not apply. A single pacifist isn't going to solo banshee.

- All bosses should have a strong KTP monster that blocks the use of a solo druid or mage from checking bosses.

- All squares near the bosses or where keys are found should be log to local.
*An example would be the non log to local square in the chronos temple. As well as the room to get orbs for the dungeon. The icy cavern by banshee. ect. ect.

The point is that the game shouldn't be as easy as just logging on a checker to see what bosses are in. It shouldn't be as easy as just logging on a character to gather keys. As i said in my previous post. It's not far off from just having a command that shows all the bosses that are in, and if we are in fact in the business of making things easy. We could delete all areas and move all the bosses to the meadow. I am of the mind that it wouldn't hurt for things to take a little more effort. Why must checking for bosses be a matter of instant gratification. I feel like there are simple things that can be done to prevent boss checkers and characters that gather keys. I don't feel like players that might get upset over the extra effort have a valid complaint. Please, please, please tell me that "I want to be lazy" isn't being accepted as valid.

Edited by Scruggs, 27 June 2012 - 03:52 AM.

[Pureza]

I like to use my checkers. But it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if I didn't have them anymore. I would probably actually level alot faster due to the fact that i'd actually be tripping all over the realm. So, Supported on that one.

As far as /toggle who, Bill is right. It's been suggested numerous times that it be removed, with some very valid reasons to remove it. The main one being that it makes the server look much more inactive than it is, which is a deterrent to any new players nm might attract. Who wants to play a game where no one is on. The whole point of a MMORPG is the social interaction. So again, Supported.

And that's my two cents.

[Justice]

social interaction...lol

[Gnarkill]

Both of these ideas have been brought up and beaten like a dead horse, and you'll find a majority of people have been taking the same stance as you on them for quite a while now.

If squares were l2l 2-3 squares from each boss that paci's cannot hit and staff also made it so it wasn't possible to go back out the way you came in.. that would probably fix it but they would be forced to run each time or atleast to run them back to a log spot where they can check it fast when they log in. but they would atleast have to make the trip instead of letting things sit.

I understand alot of people dislike the whole class of Pacifist, but I am one that happens to enjoy them for what they are rather than just using them as checkers so if anything is done with them.. all I ask is that staff/admin keep them useful. lock me out of bosses I can't kill thats perfectly fine, I don't use mine as a checker.. but please don't do anything that would horribly modify the class itself.

As for the /toggle who... is rediculous that people are so chicken that they need to hide.. I've said it again and again to the point of frustration that it makes the server look more inactive than it is and was just a horrible move.. thats coming from someone who doesn't like to be social at all when he plays.. so the people who do enjoy the social aspect must be more peeved at it than I am..

If I recall correctly the same group that decided on /toggle who is the same group that decided Nopk multi was a great idea.. one of those mistakes has been reversed but why not the other? if they can't have nopk we'll give them easy hiding? might aswell just make it nopk again and make people visible... atleast that way we could see how active the server actually is.

either way I support both as long as Pacis dont get too tampered with(locked out from certain places .. thats 100% fine).

Edited by Gnarkill, 27 June 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Cruxis]

Agree'd on all counts, but one.

As for keeping pacifists out of non healable bosses, nah. Not sure how much pking happens on main, but unless the server becomes nopk, the possibility exists. A single non heal ktp would be adequate for keeping paci checkers out (one that heals itself for the other classes, a mob with same stats as maneater without torch mod would do), but if the paci has a reason to be in there, the only one being justice zone, the accompanying party with attackers can get them in if need be, but the paci cannot get in alone, defeating the point of the checker.

[Gnarkill]

Agree'd on all counts, but one.

As for keeping pacifists out of non healable bosses, nah. Not sure how much pking happens on main, but unless the server becomes nopk, the possibility exists. A single non heal ktp would be adequate for keeping paci checkers out (one that heals itself for the other classes, a mob with same stats as maneater without torch mod would do), but if the paci has a reason to be in there, the only one being justice zone, the accompanying party with attackers can get them in if need be, but the paci cannot get in alone, defeating the point of the checker.

I like that, would the spaces after the KTP be l2l then? so people couldnt just kill it once and drop something off in there and leave it as a checker? it would make pacis not as able to run past everything and check.. but now I'm thinking someone could still log a party of 2-5 "checker" chars and kill it/check it/run back past KTP and log(rinse repeat). Atleast it would make them do something productive to check? lol

[IXThunderDomeXI]

Here's an idea, remove Pacifist from game.

[Envy]

I dont care what they do with "boss checker situation" even better if they was to make every square on the realm l2l of course i mean out of town areas lol bc just like rj said we can kill anything and everything on the path we r heading too when checking bosses ect lol and bill coughulazytothatswhyuusemycheckerstocheckbossescough but anyways ill support ur topic cody "cody for staff" "ill still pk u tho " and yeah i think they should remove that /toggle who bc that does make the game completely dead but like everyone said if 1 staff dont like what we think is best for the game to make it better then thats it the topic just gets shut down so we r all doing this for nuttin hope ya all know that but wait STIG UR THE MAN COME ON WORK UR MAGIC SON "kiss stig"

[Apocalypto]

Don't like realm being l2l because people would abuse to pk or avoid being pkd..

[Stig]

Remember that Pacifists can just bypass kill-to-pass monsters so this isn't a solution in itself. Non-undead monsters holding keys is one solution, as is making areas near and at the boss log-to-local. The more modern areas don't allow Pacifists at all in order to prevent any problems, although it hinders their capacity for exploration.

Most major bosses can't be easily checked with Pacifists now.

- The Island of Chronos was closed off to them many years ago (although the reason behind this was to stop griefing, as someone realised they could use a Pacifist to spawn 5 Time Mages).
- The Dvergar Stronghold and Soft Places outright ban Pacifists completely.
- Tirantek originally didn't restrict Pacifists due to the small number of undead monsters and the numerous expensive keys required to get near the bosses, but Pacifists can no longer enter certain areas due to their abuse in farming Dwarven Pickaxes and checking the Credenza (the latter needs a lot of keys and a lot of killing to get to), but it's still possible to kill the small number of undead monsters in the area to add to one's kill list.


For bosses that don't require keys or aren't that hard to access, blocking Pacifists is relatively pointless and just serves to spite the class.

Which bosses are still checked with Pacifists? The only one I can think of that could pose a problem is the Banshee and Bolted Chest, but I'm a little unsure about blocking them because there isn't a solid role-play reason and I know a few players have attempted to get the Banshee on their Pacifists' kill lists (which is quite a feat).

[PrimeX85]

uh gareth, banshee and chest arent the only bosses people use paci's for, theres probs 2 outta every 3 active main players that have paci's parked somewhere near to use as checkers throughout the whole game...

if this whole checker thing was to come to light and be changed, what about makin every area with a boss that drops something worth while, make it so u need a key of some sort, like how the pyramids was set up? that would be pretty different and new to the system. it would make it so players couldnt use checkers(even tho they could still farm keys yadda yadda but can make it so they couldnt) and have to actually work to get to the boss of that sort...i know alot of players really dont play main due to other players always camping bosses(like myself) due to the checkers situation cause its so easy and little to no effort is put into actually doin anything...

but either way if somethings done or nothings done, i support it either way.. i would like to see something new be done with main(not just a new area with a boss or anything cause the spark doesnt last long due to people farming it)..but would be really cool to see some changes done on main whether its either of these ideas, or like i said above something new and different done to the game

[Stig]

The trouble with requiring keys is that the main party can acquire them, then give them to the Pacifist. This is how checkers were put in place for the Credenza, even though it required 3 keys and Mage to cast Vortex Gate to get the Pacifist in position. Players have ways of getting around obstructions!

Many bosses are just as straightforward to check with another class, normally a Druid or Mage (especially with a Spyglass)... failing that, things like the Hedge Lord you can just run straight to without a checker. Of course, Pacifists have the advantage of being able to totally protect themselves. It's a tricky one.

[Gnarkill]

I wonder if it would be possible to pacis unable to pass ktp's and then make the ktps on routes to the common areas and bosses they can fight just modified undead versions of whatever is currently there. I see what you're saying about mages/druids with spyglass too, people could still have checkers but it would atleast make them work with a ktp and few squares from there to boss being l2l. they would have to log something capable of killing before checking.

Also.. recall= totally overpowered. we should atleast be forced to walk everywhere and back.

The whole realm l2l would be legit. I would guess alot of people would get mad if net went out in the middle of something and they logged 2 seconds later in pub. I think it could be a fun obstacle.. a friend drops and you gotta slug your way out or rethink strategy.. might be cool vs just sitting and pressing click on high powered #s.

[Gaddy]

- At the entrance square(s) of areas that pacifists don't belong in make that first square a no pacifist square. That seems simple enough.
*All areas should have this unless they meet the criteria of the exceptions below.
~Areas that have heal to kill monsters
~Areas that pacifists need to pass through to get to heal to kill monsters
~Towns that pacifists have to be able to get to.
`Note: Monsters and bosses such as Banshee that are heal to kill should not apply. A single pacifist isn't going to solo banshee.

- All bosses should have a strong KTP monster that blocks the use of a solo druid or mage from checking bosses.

I don't believe this would solve your problem with boss checkers. I think it simply kills the pacifist class.
In all honesty, the game would be even more tilted in favor of players with tons of characters.

I also disagree with blocking pacifists from so many areas. They are explorers and protectors, not simple heal-damage poachers. They could be used for Justice Zone, if players were ever so inclined again. And you can stop them from checking most bosses with keys or KTP monsters.
Or make Spyglass an item that cannot be equip by pacifists.



If you want to stop boss checking, I think that it is fairly easy. I would simply suggest:
1. Make all bosses kill-to-pass for all character types.
2. Put an additional square between main key use and boss square, similar to Atrium Monarch. (and/or disable /spy next to boss squares)

This forces characters to actually move onto the boss square, which they cannot leave if the boss is present. You would almost always make these bosses log-to-local, preventing quick logs and the sort.

There are vulnerabilities here still, but you prevent skipping keys. Frequently, that will keep pacifists from checking bosses, even if they run through an entire area. Some keys and bosses could still be farmed, but they'd have to be used far more often - preventing the simple boss checker.



Disclaimer:
I don't encourage or support anything in my post or others. I don't really care to prevent lazy boss checking. Everyone can get druids a pacifist or two and a couple of spyglasses, if they really want to compete.

[PrimeX85]

The trouble with requiring keys is that the main party can acquire them, then give them to the Pacifist. This is how checkers were put in place for the Credenza, even though it required 3 keys and Mage to cast Vortex Gate to get the Pacifist in position. Players have ways of getting around obstructions!

yeah thats what i was saying

[Gnarkill]

I think it simply kills the pacifist class.

It does kill them as a "checker" and if thats all you view them as then I suppose it does kill the class for you, however there are people who enjoy playing the class as its supposed to be and not only as a lazy way to check bosses. I personally hate paladins and would only use one for darksparrow.. but if that area was opened to other classes I wouldn't sit and say that kills Paladins.. it would just make them less useful to the people who only use them for that one thing.

I know alot of people hate Pacifists(except for checkers) but not every class is built for every player..I hate running a party of 15-20(or more if you have friends with) and zerging bosses.. to me thats boring and uneventful.. where is the challenge in it? I like a challenge so when I have the time I try to figure out how to accomplish new things on my pacifist(mostly) or with a minimal numbers of alts.. thats the whole game for me.


as for the "remove paci's" comment up there.. I don't know if there are others like me that enjoy Pacis left in the realm, but with the minimal time I get to be on and the work I've put into my paci and solo golding on it for its eq I would probably quit logging if they were removed.

[Envy]

uh gareth, banshee and chest arent the only bosses people use paci's for, theres probs 2 outta every 3 active main players that have paci's parked somewhere near to use as checkers throughout the whole game...

if this whole checker thing was to come to light and be changed, what about makin every area with a boss that drops something worth while, make it so u need a key of some sort, like how the pyramids was set up? that would be pretty different and new to the system. it would make it so players couldnt use checkers(even tho they could still farm keys yadda yadda but can make it so they couldnt) and have to actually work to get to the boss of that sort...i know alot of players really dont play main due to other players always camping bosses(like myself) due to the checkers situation cause its so easy and little to no effort is put into actually doin anything...

but either way if somethings done or nothings done, i support it either way.. i would like to see something new be done with main(not just a new area with a boss or anything cause the spark doesnt last long due to people farming it)..but would be really cool to see some changes done on main whether its either of these ideas, or like i said above something new and different done to the game

bill wtf u talking about u dont play main bc ppl stalk bosses ect ur a 1 alt player and always will be so dont come with the "ppl dont play main bc others farm bosses bs" u only on ,main to hustle and trade for 1 alt so shhhhh let the real activame main players talk about main things pimp u just stay on ur 1 alt things love u too btw

[PrimeX85]

yeh i dont play main, yeh ur right? why dont i play main anymore, cause of that simple fact, ppl camping bosses and none are ever in....so dont ruin this post wit ur bs when u damn well kno what the facts are

Edited by PrimeX85, 28 June 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Pureza]

And removing checkers isn't gonna change the fact that bosses are consistently dead. There's less than a handful of bosses in game it takes more than 5-10 minutes to get to.

[Envy]

yeh i dont play main, yeh ur right? why dont i play main anymore, cause of that simple fact, ppl camping bosses and none are ever in....so dont ruin this post wit ur bs when u damn well kno what the facts are

Ok sorry boss love u too