106 replies to this topic

[Gaddy]

Wish you guys didn't feel the need to claim it's because of who you are that people aren't happy about how the item got into game.
I doubt many people really know Horny, and there are people who're disliked quite a bit more than her.

The point is that these items should involve playing the game.

[tool]

im just wondering where this uproar of emotion was the last half dozen times something like this was done. like woof woof said, this needs to be settled between john and simon so stuff like this doesnt happen...as you can tell, most of the game is upset it wasnt done properly....why punish horny for being the first to page/yell, no one else was every punished because they clicked the item that was dropped first.


JLH should allow her to keep the items she recived from the sale of the boots she won in simon's gay event. Yoshaj*wf*g should be able to keep his boots. Everyone else should be given a tissue

[joanna]

id love to see a quest or auction for an item that is just better that an item that someone once earned but has since been given/shared/stolen (all are same thing imho) through several players...

[Satterlee]

Yeah, it really is bullnuts. Also notice, Pandilex caused this mess, he's positively been confronted about it, seen this topic, and yet he still hasn't replied.

[Prophet]

When it comes down to it: He's the co-owner, he's not going to be fired for something like this lol.

[Rappy_Ninja]

this is why crane should be staff =(

[Pandilex]

Yeah, it really is bullnuts. Also notice, Pandilex caused this mess, he's positively been confronted about it, seen this topic, and yet he still hasn't replied.

Everything happens for a reason it does.

[Gaddy]

Probably didn't post cause he doesn't want to be flamed.

He had the dignity not to do something completely unfair and ban me for making the post, lol.
He was also even-sighted enough to not try to keep JLH from removing them.


I would still like to know though, will more thought be put into this type of action from now on Simon?
If you say yes and follow through...I'd really like the idea of playing NM and NM2 much more.

[Pandilex]

Being flamed is second nature now.

The point of this post, and a few others that have appeared over the past few weeks (such as the curious choice post) have simply been to emphasise the need for Nightmist 2.

Since trying to explain this to JLH repeatedly has failed, I decided to appeal to the players instead.

Nightmist is festering right now and it needs to be replaced. What kind of game is good where so many people have so much of the games limited amount on valuable stuff that one item, which will improve a character by probably 0.0000001% in the game, sells for ludicrous amounts of money in seconds?

It demonstrates that there is FAR too much money in the game.

It demonstrates that there is nothing new any more - everyone has every item and thus unique things are worth 50 times as much as they should be.

It demonstrates that it's really time to get a move on with Nightmist 2. I have about 50 pages of ideas which will produce a game ten thousand times better.

[Gaddy]

There'd be a lot less if someone didn't decide to put in a class that couldn't be touched by other classes; then ignore players yelling about them making too much gold by training in the museum for ages, while cobalts etc streamed into game.
Not to say that's the whole problem, but can't the same happen on NM2? Something inbalanced comes into game, and the playerbase is ignored for long enough to make it have a large effect. Seems almost likely to me.

Both of the past two class additions have come with abilities that seem to overpower them, but very little has been done when players request that they be revamped.

There are ways to get some of the gold out of the game, and some of us don't think NM2 is some auto-savior. I'd like proof that you can make a game's economy work correctly, and give enough of a damn about it not to just throw it away for a new try.
I don't want to pay for playing a game like NM for 2-3 years to suddenly have everything I have trained up not matter because of some new class addition that can round it all or make gold so quickly they buy exactly what I own.


And to note- No word as to if you'd be dropping quest items or doing things to put us in an uproar for nutss and giggles on NM or NM2. Why is that? Is that how you plan on distributing the questies on NM2?

Edited by Gaddy, 26 June 2005 - 02:54 PM.

[fallen]

There is deffiently some problems with nightmist we all know that and as posted by simon those are a few examples but instead of just scrapping a game that some people played for a very long time, and a game that has had a very decent amount of player base in the past...why not try to improve and get the player base back up??? wouldnt it make more sence to have introduced NightMist2 when NightMist one was at its peak??? We have determined that most of the people that acutally play have most of the top gear as far as equipment ect., wouldnt it make sence to maybe add some new equipment to change that or I mean you say there is "to much gold in the game" why not introduce some new items that can be store bought for a high amount of gold, wouldnt that make some sence to relieving the problem.

Yes Nightmist has changed in huge strides over the last few years but if the staff reconize the problems why arent we changing it, I mean the player base play for a couple of years to get all the shiney stuff then when a good number of the game does instead of introducing some new stuff or evolving with the game as it changes we say screw it scrap the game and come out with part 2.....Personally I am not sure if thats really gonna motivate people to wanna play the second edition of a game after seeing the results of part1.

[Pandilex]

There'd be a lot less if someone didn't decide to put in a class that couldn't be touched by other classes; then ignore players yelling about them making too much gold by training in the museum for ages, while cobalts etc streamed into game.

A fair point, but the reason I didn't change them afterwards was because it was too much effort. To get anything changed in this game, for me, requires enormous effort petitioning JLH. I've been waiting for a very long time to get working on Nightmist 2, but he's the bottleneck at the moment, quite busy with things. It took an eternity to get Pacifists added after they were originally invented, and to lobby for a change to fix them would take longer still - too long.

Not to say that's the whole problem, but can't the same happen on NM2?  Something inbalanced comes into game, and the playerbase is ignored for long enough to make it have a large effect.  Seems almost likely to me.

Yup, it's very likely unless JLH has time to listen to me and put the changes in immediately.

Both of the past two class additions have come with abilities that seem to overpower them, but very little has been done when players request that they be revamped.

It's all because of the delay in changes being made. In order to balance something it needs to be tweaked, tested, tweaked, tested etc. If it takes several weeks for each tweak... you see the problem.

There are ways to get some of the gold out of the game, and some of us don't think NM2 is some auto-savior.  I'd like proof that you can make a game's economy work correctly, and give enough of a damn about it not to just throw it away for a new try.

Sure, I can do that. First of all I'd have to reset the game. Then I'd have to play with the limited facilities of the game to try and build a far bigger game world, with more variation. Building a bigger game world is possible, but variation? Sadly not. All of the shortcomings of this game have been addressed on pen and paper by myself, and without rewriting the entire game, they cannot be resolved. Rather than keep trying to patch this game up, it needs a major overhaul. It cannot happen without wiping everything, which would annoy everyone. So instead, all effort SHOULD be put into Nightmist 2. I'd love to post a big list of features that I have planned, but it could be years before we see Nightmist 2, because JLH seems to be concentrating on nightmist 1 too much. Nightmist 1 is dead. Add a unique item and people with billions of gold and 50 level 30 characters will buy it for ridiculous prices, because they have nothing else to spend their money on. The price ladder has ended - you buy a sword for 10 gold, a better sword for 20 gold, etc. etc. so you can improve your character as you become wealthier - when there's no more swords left to buy your money collects and gets out of control.

I don't want to pay for playing a game like NM for 2-3 years to suddenly have everything I have trained up not matter because of some new class addition that can round it all or make gold so quickly they buy exactly what I own.

You won't have to. It would be inconcievable to release Nightmist 2 and charge for it off the bat.

And to note- No word as to if you'd be dropping quest items or doing things to put us in an uproar for nutss and giggles on NM or NM2.  Why is that?  Is that how you plan on distributing the questies on NM2?

Everything I do is to benefit the game, in this case it was to outline a point about thousands of people swimming around like sharks, waiting for a bite of something new, and fighting furiously with gold to get it. Gaming shouldn't be about milling around hoarding gold until something new appears so you can throw all your reserves at it to try and obtain it, then go back to waiting.

[fallen]

its sad u say nightmist 1 is dead......its dead cause staff let it get that way or am I wrong and to have staff come out on the forums and say its dead well that just increases peoples faith and the interest in the game i am sure .......it sounds to me that u pretty much just gave up on the game and maybe thats where the trouble lies I mean you add one item of any value and yes everyone jumps at it I mean lets face it when was the last time a decent item was added??.....I refuse to belive that alot of the issues with nightmist 1 canot be corrected with staff showing a little interest and some effort if the current staff does not have time or the interest why not recruit some people that will devote the needed time and actually try to improve the game for the player base instead of just giving up or writing the hole thing off ... and yes if the server was reset I am sure the reamaining few who still like to play the game would stop its like working towards a goal to have it all nilled at the end but I am sure many feel that way now cause there just has been no major shake ups in Nightmist in so long you cant let a game evolve for a few years and not make some changes to the game to evolve with it.

Edited by fallen, 26 June 2005 - 04:17 PM.

[Pandilex]

I tried, but it soon became apparent it took ridiculous amounts of effort to get even the slightest change in.

In addition, many player suggestions were added without informing me, which totally screwed up the game from other angles. I had to try to keep up with those things too, in an attempt to reverse some of the ones that had the most adverse affect.

http://kittys.ytmnd.com/

[fallen]

Well I do not doubt ur effort but lets not give up lets change some stuff!!!! maybe you and JLH need to figure out a better method to being able to get some changes done.....but yes I agree 100% that there is some major problems but lets devise a plan to improve....there is way to much money in the game we seem to agree on that lets add all new lvl 30 equip thats store bought for a very high price I mean when rings of astray were added and all the new Harabec equipment I am sure the gold lvl decreased more things like that are bound to improve but ya thats one example out of many many problems...maybe it all comes down to staff being able to make some major changes with a little more ease then it is currently set up.

Edited by fallen, 26 June 2005 - 05:04 PM.

[Final Universe]

The idea of removing gold from the game is a very good one....One way to do this would be charge a huge ammount of gold to personalize a characters description or item or picture. Another way would be having a "toll gate" on areas to get into the area. Or enter a new item similar to cobalt or equal in power and make it a non-sellable item.

[Exilus]

Or the easest solution that has not been mentioned... Lower the drop amounts and rates of ALLLLL monsters and bosses, lower spawn rates, then add the new things, that will be the quickest way to lower gold amounts. Adding new things doesn't totally fix the problem it hides it.

You buy what ever for 2. 5 mill and go right out and re earn it so fast its not funny be it 3 days in the desert, or ten seconds with abra.


Either way fixing the game is not just the gold, there would have to be staff doing their job no matter how much they got witched at.. and bans would have to be a common accurance untill the player base gets it. We had a staff member banning people for not following the rules and the playerbase made his life hell untill he finally popped.

Yes there was staff running events, but at the time only one staff member was staying with in the rules.. and i can say this because i was a friend of his and was banned for telling someone to moose off and he told me on msn nothing personal its the rules... and I agreed. But the player base or the great majority doesn't want right and they don't want fair, they want what is best to make them the strongest. sad but true.

[Simulation]

Or the easest solution that has not been mentioned... Lower the drop amounts and rates of ALLLLL monsters and bosses, lower spawn rates, then add the new things, that will be the quickest way to lower gold amounts. Adding new things doesn't totally fix the problem it hides it.

Pandilex mentioned this and explained why it wouldn't work.

[Exilus]

No actually he did not. I reread all his posts on this thread again just to be sure. He said a total reset and he said one other thing that he said would be to hard, because of JLH cooperation. He never once mentioned anything about lower or changing drop rates, and Unless its hard coded into the game and not in a database which would be the stupest coding ever. Its not hard at all.

[Egbert]

I agree with Pandilex. Nightmist is dead and we need NM2.

It's boring in NM1. There's never anything new. It's just train train train. Kill kill kill.
If Pandilex really has these 50 pages of new things (he's probably exaggerating, but still), NM2 sounds like a great idea.

It's time to move on.

[Pandilex]

You have to look at the big picture with any suggestion.

People will not like their gold being deleted (basically it would have to be a total reset, you can't just 'take' gold off people since it could be in the form of expensive crits/items.

If you do anything like toll gates or expensive character customisation, you're just going to let the rich people benefit and the poor/new players get nothing.

If you lower the spawn rates, item costs will shoot up. The rich players who already have the items will become even richer!

There is no solution.

[Gaddy]

Wow. I didn't see answers that complete and reasonable comming.
Simon, I'm impressed, and I've got no snappy remarks nor counter points.

Thanks for your time explaining what's up with several things that have annoied me in game.
-Gaddy

[Gaddy]

I see adding really expensive items to shop as a way to lower a lot of the gold, but that's just the general player-base gold. When you look at the top few players with 30m gold more than even the 'rich' players...I doubt they'd buy the stuff.

Also, auctioning off duplicates of old quest items...that'd take a large pinch out of gold. (People are ignorant if they say I am suggesting that to get rares. I'm not that interested in items, and I don't have that much gold.)


However, making bosses spawn less and drop items less often does not take gold out of the game.
You've got the false concept of gold appears when items do...
Spider Gauntlets can't be sold to shops or traded for gold except to other players. Players get their gold from common monsters, not bosses. Fewer drops would simply inflate the price of the items and bore the hell out of many players.

[Crane]

The way the economy works on Nightmist... killing monsters injects more gold into the Nightmist world, and while some is spent on equipment, as soon as crits reach level 30 and there is no more equipment to buy, gold will slowly increase. I can imagine a similar thing will happen in Nightmist II (I'm not sure why, but I think the title looks better if the 2 is in Roman Numerals).

However, I do feel that because Nightmist is so heavily alt-based these days, the gold in the game is very unevenly distributed, especially when those with older systems and slower Internet connections cannot use more than a few alts before their computer starts to misbehave. With a single-alt limit (am I right in guessing that Nightmist II will be single-alt?), the gold in the game will be more evenly distributed, because the player's system power is no longer a variable, so more emphasis goes on skill, patience, and knowing where the best gold reserves are in the realm. I do not doubt that many of the players on Nightmist earnt their gold through years of training and trading, but these days, any kind of change or new addition only seems to benefit the rich... the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Pacifists did, for quite some time, contribute to a huge influx of gold into the realm, but it was more down to imbalances with the Modern Art Sculpture than the Pacifist class itself; after that was rectified last summer, despite people thinking they are now too tough, it has solved the problem in that area.

By themselves, Berserkers are moderately balanced - they can't wear armour and they take a lot of damage to themselves when using their attack abilities (in fact, they are probably very, very hard to train by themselves), but because of heavy alt-usage where hordes of them are often teamed up with a Cleric or two, they become unstoppable killing machines.

[Raylen]

I too am impressed with the depth of thought shown by a certain admin here. Obviously you need to consider that most people are considerably resistant to changes, and i would not exclude JLH from that group. Nightmist is his game, and in his position, i am not sure i would be so willing to abandon it and start again, so to speak.

All nightmist does for me is cater for my power-trip cravings, combined with the ability to be lazy at the same time - 20 crits at a time makes a mess of pretty much any monster fairly fast, and i can make gold fast enough so i don't have to train all the time. But i'd like to have a 1-alt game, i think there would probably be less of a problem with people reaching the top, and just saving up to buy whatever they want.

[Pandilex]

A one-alt limit, like back in the day, would improve the game a thousand fold even if nothing else is changed.

It would also slow down the pace, once you reach level 30, if you make a new character, currently you will start off with the power of a level 30 plus the power of your level 1. As you get more powerful, you can use more characters simultaneously, or train characters simultaneously.

The result is, your power grows faster the more wealth you have. You've seen people with 10+ alts on (Well, I have), and you can probably imagine how fast they can train new characters up.

Nightmist II will be one-alt, and thus cooperation is going to be emphasised. I hope to add a structure of skill to make progression through the upper limits of the game more challenging.

The greatest problem I have had is the one that other games have solved via Instances. It's impossible to create a dungeon that can be sequentially solved with various challenges, because of the problems of respawn times, unlimited party members/alts, puzzles that don't reset properly etc.
I've been trying to find a way to solve this without simply copying other games and adding something similar to instances in, but I haven't entirely succeeded yet. I've got some ideas though.

[Egbert]

Nightmist II (You're right, Crane) sounds like a great idea... but I think a few major problems are:

1. All the old players... they have millions of gold... they have the "perfect crits" which are ALL the same minus hp and names.
2. The boring stamina based combat system.
3. Everybody has a million crits.

[Dark]

for the millionth time stop exagerating

[Matt]

If i remember correctly I made a similar thread back when Pandilex gave away items at the SGH - the response I got was that he is an administrator and he can do as he pleases.

I don't see much difference between giving out this item as a reward for helping him with something, and giving Zero a BoS for on-going minor help with small bugs (iirc, description mistakes etc).

[Rappy_Ninja]

personally I think that perhaps 2 alts would be better then a 1 alt limit but certainly the monsters would have to be lowered a touch or items shouldent cost as much

it just seems better to have say a cleric or whatever and a ranger

for example a monster such as the captain that takes about 14 rangers and 1 cleric to beat would be nearly impossible if a 1 alt limit were put in