Sorry, but other players still need to work up to the high levels and work with their characters.

It seems like every player with a high level character likes the benefits of the specific class. And if players would work together to trade off clericing for bosses and training or the sort, thieves being able to train without clerics would not be such a big issue.I still think clerics need to gain better experience from healing players.


Griping about thieves doesn't change the fact that other classes have been able to get to level 33+ when players worked hard enough. Some people are playing 1-alt harder and getting to high level, and it is not just thieves.
The more arguing over this topic I see, the more it seems that the real case here is heresay and jealousy. I'm not going to punish an entire class just because some players think they have it easy. That's just a comfort blanket for people who have not gotten their own characters trained as much.

Should Torches, Machetes, Dwarven Pickaxes, etc, etc, be damphered if the Dagger of the Winds is messed with?[/b]
Yes, because these are the real best training tools. DotWs is just like a mini-vampire blood potion to go with them. And this is very difficult to work with...
These 'easy' training items are not mentioned though---why? I think because players only want things that they themselves are not abusing to be issues or 'problems' with the game.

[b]Anyway, I've been looking into DotWs, like I said I would.
This wasn't a, "Hey, I'll get this changed in a few hours." type of issue. Please stop treating it like the case has been ignored. It simply takes time to understand what exactly is being done and if/how to dampher it.

Bolds.

#1 - IF players would trade off clericing.. As Angelus said what is the point of clerics and why would someone make and train one up if there is no need for it? As a cleric you miss out on the pking part of the game.. Why would someone train a cleric if you can just train a thief that can heal itself. pk. kill bosses and make gold so much easier?

#2 - Thieves don't have it easy? Are you really that blind? Thats why 1/2 of the lvl 31+'s are thieves... But it can't be because its easy to train them or the advantage they get when they are 31+... If it was as easy to train a diffrent class people would do it but its not so you can't say that its just because those players have worked harder that is bull.. Corey as an example arched a thief in 3 days game time.. Name another class you could do that on..

#3 - Torches etc... These are MULTI class based items almost any class can use these to train with unlike the dagger of the winds witch is why no one complains about these..

As I've said in number 2 you can play the hole "They've worked harder" card all you want.. Everyone knows a thief is far more easier to train then any other class as of right now.. I've posted in this thread the reasons why.. If you want to be blind to those facts so be it.

Sure a level 35 fighter might straigh own a lvl 35 thief who knows but it takes 2x as long to get the fighter there and it cost 2x as much so whats the effing point?

Broc had the right Idea easy train a thief to 35 make mass gold and sell it off and buy a cobalt.. Now he can train pretty much anything he wants with ease where ever he wants. Manda has been stocking gold sense time began and its well deserved, he'll shes even made enough gold to buy a cobalt level 2 thiefs to level 36 almost completly deck them out and still have enough to keep her score at 10k..

The old 2 top player's werent thieves and they did work harder then anyone else and thats why they were the top 2. Memphis/Freek.. When they were around people trained druids/mages but when they left they soon figured out that thieves had it easy and we'll own those 2 classes at the same level. So people stopped training those and got on the thief train.. Even Corey before he left trained one up for that fact and Achilles also bought or trained up a thief because of its advantage...

Character Look over..

Abc is a Dwarf Archmaster Beserker..

Character /who..

Abc Dwarf Archmaster Slayer.

Thieves compared to other classes to train..

Mage - Has to stay pretty close to a pub or has to buy mana every 5 minuets, As gaddy said above they could hit hit invis but thats what 60 mana evey time stam comes back arch mage has 390-420 avg thats 6-7 stam regens and they are already through 1 bar of mp and 1 advanced mana crystal = 1 stam regen. A Mage would go broke from buying mana in order to train like that.. Makes them easy to find and pk

Druid - As for hit hit camo same bit would go broke buying mana.. However a druid can camo run some where and morph and fight monsters but then you have to use pots... Not as easy to find and pk but can be done.

Fighter - Pots always.. Can follow a fighter from the time he leaves town and pk

Zerk - Pots every 3 minutes... Same as fighter to pk

Paladin - Can pretty much do what he pleases only problem with him is his terrible hit rate/dmg and cant do much against undead with 60-65 dmg with aid.. Same as fighter/zerk to pk

Cleric - 100+ Damage to undead things pretty easy to train just mana but you usually make the gold training a cleric to buy it with that problems with clerics are the few amounts of training spots you have IT, rax, and 2nd floor zeum all of witch are easily scanned by pkers... Same as ^^ to pk.

Thief - usually swamps from 1-25 in a matter of no time at all at 25 comes the dotw then they can do two things.. Go sit covert and click small snakes/spiders etc all day... Or grab the dotw stock up on food/water and go to keylike places or places pretty far out of the norm and assassinate however many times it takes covert move on bank all the gold go buy more food and water and repeat... They covert and leave town and then either are still covert killing things or in distant places making them hard to find and pk.


Yes Lethal_Dose/Devotchka have insane game times and yes they do deserve there level but you can't use them as you have above.. They have had those crits sense 1a opend more then a year ago... However other people have sold out of there classes to pick up a thief do to the fact that they bank almost 100% of the gold they make, they are not hard to train as they can do it secretly or out of the norm (more a pk issue here), and ofcourse in the end they are a good pkers/boss killers that you can do without a cleric..

As for Piggy/Achilles/God_Of_Death.. And all the other high exp crits that are not a thief... All these were also trained from almost the begging of 1a and these have the same game times and levels (almost) But now there are lvl 33-34 thieves with 1/2 of those crits game times and 1-2 levels below them? Game time doesnt prove much as Angelus said I can have a level 30 and never train it again and have 128 days game time doesnt mean that its hard to train that character just means when im on i just sit and talk or pk witch is half of Devotchka's/Lethal's game time..

Yes hitting monsters and not coming out is an issue but for thieves to click those without failing and showing themselves/take damage they are usually low pod monsters so that justifys its self not .. As for dotw they can take those to 70-80 pod monsters and just sit and fight until its dead without going under 80% of health. And when they do fail on those low pod monsters and "take a nick" the dotw gives it right back.


Those were the last words from me on this topic as you've said you will look into changing the spawn/dotw issues.

I agree that doing more damage to undead things is an easy way to make paladins better without having to do alot of work.. Also this doesn't have to increase and of the pallys current skills to make them "Overpowerd".

Depurate Undead - Pally Version please!

^^ Agree with everything except mages are now one of the weaker classes.. Thats bs. Mages still rule supreme over all the other classes except thieves and zerks.

However, thieves are a great pvp class and a great pvm class because of the topic. Dotw wouldn't be so much of a problem if it wasn't for that like you have said before a thief just trains with a dotw/farms gold and then switches to an ED when wants to pk.

Witch leads us to the point where either the dotw needs changing or the thieves pvp abilites. Because for a class to rule high in both catagories is why there is no real reason for anyone to train anything else.

this is for Nerutically wth are you on 1a b4 i post anymore and possibly argue with you cuz if u dont even play the server your opinon dont really matter

Opinon?

Everyone knows this item is a problem that is not an opion that is a fact. Gaddy has said himself that it needs to be balanced. What we are trying to figure out here is how to make it balanced without doing anything rash. Witch is what my post suggest. I was simply replying to Gaddys about how players will "boo".

Im sure there are plenty of the post around but these need a boost badly especiall on 1a where you would think a paladin would be an over used class and not a thief.

Suggestions.

Up the aid to the same as cleric.
Mabe give paladins a spell such as holy might or make divine prayer give back a stamina aswell..
Bring the +20 heal bonus back. (1a)
Raise the hit rate and/or Damage a paladins attack does. (Ex.. A 30 paladin with an imperial sword with CS on does an average of about 45-55dmg on monsters such as gnolls/lioness.. when it hits...)

I don't see how any of the above suggestions can "overpower" a paladin being in the fact that they are a pvm class and not so much a pvp.. Only classes a paladin can beat pvp at same level is fighter/zerk and mabe a ranger depending on how the ranger plays it and thats in a duel not just running around pking.

Hell right now you can Melee train a cleric faster then you could a paladin.. A Cleric with holy might + enhance hits harder with lower base damage weapons and more often.. Paladins should do avg 60-70 with CS and a 25+ bd weapon..

--------------------------------------------------------

Was lookin in the pally thread saw something I thought was a good Idea given the fact that Paladins have always been able to Dispatch Undead very easily in D&D etc..

paladins are suposed to be a holy class i think they should be able to smite the undead and do more dmg to undead naturally not added to weapons.and they should have a higher hit % but as in spells the spells they have are fine but smite undead should be a added skill but dunno just the higher hit % and the ability to do more dmg to undead would be fine for me

This got me thinking.. Why dont paladins have a spell similar to Depature Undead (Pacifist) It isnt a healing spell just a spell that does "Holy" Damage onto undead creatures.. Mabe 80-100 level 30 Requirement??

Yeah some players are gonna complain, some will of had the advantage of using it before hand, but in the end we all know that this item is way to overpowerd and over used for the thief class and something has to be done like annoyance said..

There have been other situations where other classes and players had problems with but in the end what happend? Staff modified it for the best of the game and not the players intrest at that time.. Staff team will get a boo from all the thief users aka Everyone? At first but mabe if the dotw gets changed people might... omg... Train something else?

I still say either lower the vamp and bd or rase the level requirement (Not like that will do much sense everyone already has a lvl 30+ thief these days) ... and/or dont even mess with the dotw but make thiefs assassinate minimum back to how it was before that update and make assassinate go through less armor or Just get rid of the dotw all together and give just give everyone who has one the gold back..

I say lowering the bd and vamp is a good solution.. The DotW is 350k witch is a pretty good amount but lets be real after that training becomes free?

"If the damage is lowered and stuff---how do we prevent having thief characters entirely unbalanced by those who started training earlier?
How do we make up the cost to the players who've bought DotW?"

I honestly dont know how to make it fair by those who started ealier but lets be real we didnt punish the clerics/pallys that traind before the +20 was removed nor did we punish the people who made most there exp before gate training was taken away.

For the cost.. If the player sees no more value in the DotW i say make the sell back price 250k or so..

the experince system before never went with your level, it was total experience, my suggestion is at your entire lvl of 30, you lose 1.5m exp per death, at lvl 31, you lose 2.5m per death, etc, so on and so forth.

Before the 1.5 mill cap was put on it did go with your level.. At lvl 30 you lost less exp when you died then you did at lvl 31 and so on and so forth..

I never said there should be no exp loss, i myself voted for 3m per death, i just think losing 10 mil + exp is a bit drastic, for any level, and as your exp rises, the more you stand to lose, even something like a level based system on how much exp you lose would be a good addition, as you level up higher you lose a higher % of exp when you die, possibly starting with 1.5m at lvl 30 and raising 1m each lvl? or something along the lines of it, that at least makes it fair to ALL players.

Thats how it is and was before the 1.5 cap was put on it..

And to Annoyance - Right now they lose 1.5 I think before the cap they lost somewhere around 3-4

I was mainly talking about how the 1a server is a little over a year old and there are people already at lvl 36.. Granted people do try to pk them more but obviously losing 1.5m wasnt enough to make the grandmaster think twice before risking there life not only that but we both know that they dont die much anyways..

There has to be something in 1a more challenging then wow i got pk'd i lost 1.5m something a grandmaster can make very easly in a short amount of time..

I belive they removed it for 2 reasons..

A. There are already lvl 36's and Cobalts..
B. Yes a grandmaster will lose alot of exp but... Isnt it hard to kill a grandmaster?

Another update mistake.. Now level 30's look over and /who are diffrent again..

Ex.. Lvl 30 thief /who = Archmaster Assassin
/l = Archmaster Thief

Grats Gareth!

About the update.. I like how it makes lvl 30 Arch and 31 class I but it also made lvl 35 Archmaster V instead of Grandmaster?? I still think 35 deserves the title of Grandmaster...

Also ^^ wouldnt make sense if lvl 36 = Class I grandmaster and not just Grandmaster if there was not just a plain grandmaster before that..

Im pretty sure you nailed it..

1a.

The main problem I see on 1a is class vs class balancing issues... Of course we don't know exactly how unbalanced it is becasue the only lvl 35+ crits so far are thieves and mages.. Before as Cruxis said above everyone thought mages were so overpowerd becasue there was one lvl 33 mage that had 6 stam and was 3-4+ levels above any other character in the game.. This could very well be true about thieves right now they are considerd over power because thats all there is and vs a mage of the same lvl they can click them with ease, even thieves lower levels of a 35 mage can pretty much click it with ease... A zerk at 35 will have 8? stam, probably making it able to click all the lvl 35 thieves just as easy as they click the lvl 35 mage.. But for all the non armor piercing classes they need a boost or better yet make Assassinate not go through as much armor as it already does. Or go back and keep the old minimum of assassinate as low as it was. This way thieves do not have such the advantage over the other classes.. Zerks on the other hand are one of the hardest crits to train on 1a because without a cleric they really cant go anywhere to train without buying pots every 3 minuets thats why A zerks smite going through armor makes sense but thieves are the easiest characters to train and make gold mainly because of the reason below witch is why there assassinate should not be as powerful vs classes as it is.. I mean why train something else when you can farm gold and level fast and still click almost anything..

The Dagger of the Winds is the problem. It is pretty cheap in the minds of a vamparic weapon and is not that high of a lvl requirment sense most people swamp a thief till 25.. This gives thieves a HUGE advantage over anyother class because they are able to wonder WAY further away from the towns than any class that has to determine on Pots or mana to survive. There have been examples of how overpowerd this item is..

Malok(nothing)

Clericless Time Knight(nothing)

Clericless GE( gaunts)

Banshee(no chest, so no drop)

while killing time, we dropped Teptok(nothing again)

while waiting for a few others we dropped HL again with Imhotep party(3 clerics, 9 attackers)went down hard and fast =D

Dropped Imotep(nothing)

Clericless HL again about 4 hours later(nothing)

Someone was nice enough to leave the GSW mort, so we finished it off clericless style(SWH)

When you can take a party of thieves and kill Time Knight and Goblin Elder without a cleric what more can you ask for..

It's hard to not "bash" on the thief class but lets face it we all know the reason that 80% of the lvl 30+'s are thieves are because of the reason above.. This class either needs a downgrade or all the other classes (except mabe a zerk) need a huge upgrade. But like I said above we do not know what any other class does of the same level except mage vs thief and we know the outcome of that 85% of the time..

EDIT: Forgot there was a lvl 35 druid.. How does that deal vs a lvl 35 thief by the way?

EDIT #2: Also something HAS to be done about paladins... Either A. There Aid needs to be enhaced to the equivelent of Clerics. B. The +20 Heal bonus needs to be reinstated. and or C. There hit rate needs to be higher especially when under the influence of Holy Speed.. What the hell is the point of 27 Dex if you still miss 50% of the time..